To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

But even if you did all that she can still stay at your mums and look after her surely?

I think this is a bit more than ‘gifts’ !! And now that the diagnosis of dementia has been made, there is a definite reason to think that care will be needed in the near future, so any gifts made by the POA would probably be seen as deprivation of assets by the council. In certain circumstances the local authority can take action to recover gifts made in this way, if they think assets have been given away in order to reduce care fees.

But the point is she can’t. It’s theft. Her mum has dementia and hasn’t the capacity to agree to any of it.

Amendments to clarify any errors in my original note:
It cost £1000 a week not a month and we were originally quoted top up of £100 a week however upon financial assessment my MIL was considered self funding so paid the full amount.
Yes there are two thresholds, £23k worth of capital or assets at which the council start to support funding and the individual pays a scale of top up until you reach £14k. When you are in full time care you no longer receive state pension or attendance allowance, pension credit etc as this is considered towards your care so my understanding was it was at £14k council would be fully funding and left with something like £20 a week spending money. We didn't go into further detail due to their decision for her to be self funding.
We agree to disagree re the funding for such care. As I mentioned, anyone with other health conditions such as cancer are not required to fund for their health needs. Surely there should be some equality here? Why is dementia particularly treated so differently and shocking levels of care and support available without a cost incurred? Appreciate it is a government funding issue and something a lot of MPs are fighting for. There has been some legislation for the future that you would pay not more that 80k towards care costs however this is not means tested. For someone who has minimal assets and capital worth £60k they use all of their assets, where millionaires would pay only a small portion.
I'm passionate about this due to seeing this first hand and having lost my MIL only last week due to this horrible illness and in the knowledge of the awful journey she took with very little support from NHS, doctors, memory clinic etc.
Just my opinion and was adding my experience to OPs original AIBU post.

Just to add again in our experience self funders were not paying more. We were quoted £1000 a week as self funders, the council contribute £900 and the top up was the difference between council allocated funding and private fees. This is why the top ups varied because it depended on what they were charging individuals on a private basis and the difference between council contributions and normal fee

This is why I’m beginning to think this is a wind up. Before agreeing to act as someone’s lasting power of attorney you should be aware of the responsibilities it carries and the OP doesn’t seem to have a clue - as evidenced by her last post ‘ So am I right i'm thinking she can't just go ahead and do this stuff?’ She doesn’t seem to realise that she will ultimately carry the can for what her sister is proposing, or that she has the legal right to step in and stop it. As her mums’ LPA she’s legally responsible for ensuring every decision she makes is in her mums’ best interests and this is most definitely not. There’s a handbook supplied by the office of the public guardian, for use when completing the application for an LPA. It sets out what you can and can’t do as the attorney, and what can and cannot be included in the LPA itself. Ignorance is no defence. So I’m thinking wind up.

Lots of people don’t take the time to see exactly what their responsibilities are @Lovelysausagedogscrumpy

You see it all the time on here in threads. People often genuinely think POA means just doing whatever they want.

And because they assume they know what they’re doing they don’t read anything.

It’s also not helped sometimes by care homes and carers also getting things wrong. DH’s granny is in a home and her POA’s have twice been asked to agree to something that’s absolutely not on. Many many people would have agreed on the basis that the homes deal with this all the time so know what they’re doing.

My own mum has advanced vascular dementia so you have my sincere condolences for what you must have been through, and your ultimate loss. It’s dreadful watching someone you love fading away right in front of you. I agree with you when it comes to care funding for people with health issues - there is some funding available through NHS Continuing Care but the rules are very strict and very few people qualify. Dementia care also costs a lot more than standard care, and in my opinion, isn’t properly regulated. But that, aside, I do agree that standard care in old age should be self funded by those who can afford to do so. The alternative is raising taxes, or introducing a ring fenced contribution similar to NI, so that everyone pays according to their means and receives the same, regulated standard of care. There is too much left unregulated in the care sector at the moment, and at the end of the day we’re talking about vulnerable people who can easily be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous.

I know people that never had these things in place. Their mum was put in care and they lost all their inheritance paying for it. We pay enough in taxes ( well most of us do) all our lives so it’s important to keep as much of it out of the greedy tax man’s hands as possible. My mother had it all sorted as she said they didn’t want what they had worked all their life for going to the government. But each to their own I suppose.

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy you too have my sympathies. It truly is an awful disease with an unregulated environment. The council outsourced MIL care to a company that honestly just didn't care at all, and employed staff in the same manner. We set up CCTV outside property originally so we were made aware if she left her home but instead found carers visits were a matter of minutes (often 3 or 4), but they logged on their app they made dinner, cup of tea and had a 'good chat' with MIL for 30 minutes. Absolute rubbish and we never received an apology after complaining, instead one carer told MIL she 'had to' stay now so went and lay on sofa and put her feet up, disgusting way to behave to a vulnerable person.
I digress! I'm aggrieved by the system which feels unfair but not a politician to resolve or find a solution. Just currently feels unfair and if there are legal ways that individuals can protect their assets for the purpose they intend (pass on to loved ones) then they should be able to do so.
In OPs case this feels too late and regardless of what the sister wants to do I feel there is very little that could be done without legal / fraudulent implications.
I'm not yet even 40 but already planning POA now so that it is place should anything ever happen in the future, it makes things so much more straightforward at a time when loved ones shouldn't be worried about how to pay a bill on your behalf or make a medical decision for you. Also we are referring back to our solicitor to review our wills and consider trust options to protect our assets. Not from a care point of view as such, but ensuring what assets I have are left to those I love without complications. Say for example I died and my husband remarried with step children. With a trust my share of house i could specify that this would be reserved for my children, and not the new wife and their children which would happen otherwise. We see it on here all the time when this has happened and there are children who feel cut out of their share. Make it clear now while your alive what you want to happen with your assets. Appreciate its money at the end of the day and doesn't compare to life itself, but the small things can break a family without clear instructions from a loved one.
I digress again!😬

The OP has her mothers’ lasting power of attorney so will already have access to her bank account for the day to day running of the house, paying bills etc. The easiest way for the OP to stop her sister accessing the bank account is to let the bank know that she, the OP, is the LPA, if she hasn’t already. That way, the bank will be aware that she is the only one authorised to access the account. Strictly speaking the OP should have informed the bank that she had her mothers’ LPA before she accessed the account, as unless her mother has specifically authorised access to the account in the LPA, the OP would need her mothers’ permission each time she withdraws funds.

So you think it’s right that the tax payer should pay for the later life care of someone perfectly capable of funding it themselves, while greedy relatives benefit do you ? No one is ‘entitled’ to an inheritance. There is a world of difference between having to accept LA funded care, and having the choice of funding it yourself, and the OP and her sister are robbing their mother of that choice if they go ahead with this plan. I agree, the care system isn’t perfect and it does seem unfair that those who can pay are compelled to, while others get it free, but that’s the system we have at the moment and until we come up with a better one, we’re all subject to it whether we like it or not. You can’t just break the law and steal from a relative because you think you’re entitled to it - which is obviously what these two pieces of work believe.

Even at £5 odd an hour for 24/7 that's an absolute bargain. Try finding a nursery for anything like that.
Most end of life expenses don't cost anything like £14k. Certainly not a funeral and I've organised a few. To leave £7.5 k would be a more realistic figure and save councils/taxpayers millions.
Again, we all know the finding rules. Don't like them then spend up or drip feed your money away. You take the gamble as to whether or not you'll need care.
Many many health conditions fund their own care needs. If you have Parkinson's, osteoporosis, a stroke, general frailty etc you'll pay. As you should. Dementia is no different in that regard.
As a nurse of over 32 years I agree it's a hideous disease though. But as we prolong life and cure illnesses which would years ago have finished people off, this is what will happen.
I ask yet again, what should be done with their monies, often large amounts, instead if other tax payers pay for their care and costs of living?

Depending on circumstances there may be other end of life expenses besides funerals so in the main I think £14,500 is fair. And self funders are already saving the tax payer quite a bit - it came to light during the care investigation by Ed Balls that homes charge self funders more for the same care as LA funded residents, so that they can offer reasonable rates for the LA. So self funders are already subsidising the system and you want to reduce their assets to practically nothing ? And I agree that most health conditions fund their own care needs, but generally those with dementia are charged more for specialist dementia care, which is not the case for other conditions. I also agree that in the absence of any other system, those people who can fund their own care should do so. But there has to be a better, fairer way than providing funding for those who haven’t provided it themselves, and expecting others to sell everything they own to fund it. There’s a saying - from each according to his means, to each according to their needs, and this seems to be the basis of the care system. I think a better way is to introduce a ring fenced tax similar to NI, charged according to earnings. That way everyone contributes according to their means and the care is available when it’s needed. Of course, not everyone will require care, but as now, that’s the gamble, and now that we have compulsory enrolment in workplace pension schemes, it seems a small step to get to compulsory enrolment in a scheme to provide for later life care.

I think people are not aware maybe what it is that’s my experience anyway. A lot of solicitors draw them up and don’t know how to use them. I had to go to a specialist solicitor to get advice on mine. That being said the LPA is an open ticket to abuse someone having been through it with my father financially abused as the OPG have very little cases they actually do anything with. This is a common thread anyone will know who has reported someone for investigation l, sadly .

Think this is covered already but when I read OP I thought, nope! A home round here is around £1600 a week. Mum would rather be unsafe than go into one. But she doesn’t have dementia. If she did, she’d have to. And you can’t transfer any assets, you have to pay up if you’re a home owner.

And yeh, I think you should have to pay. It would be the ultimate Levelling Up that this country needs!!

Can your sister access your mum’s bank account? I hope not! There is no need to open a new account, you just spend money on your mum from her account. If you are POA, you make the decisions given your mum can’t. It sounds like she will have to go into a home if she has dementia, unless someone becomes her full time carer which sounds unlikely as you have dc and presumably your sister works, in which case you need to sell her house to fund her care. We did it for my mil when her dementia meant she couldn’t be left home alone.

I think people do this (put house etc in children’s name) as otherwise the government will force the sale of the house to pay for care. Personally, I think if you & your mum have worked all your lives, your entitled to help from the government for care so I kind of see why your sister wants to do this. However, why did she suggest moving in to “help” then all of a sudden dosent need to now. That’s so selfish and she’s clearly saying she only wanted to help to get the house. I’d get advice, but probs from your accountant. Assuming you have one with owning your own business and they will likely give you advice for free. If you both have children you could even put the house in their names with you as the power of attorney.

Lots of people mentioning Power of Attorney. That gives limited rights and basically means you can operate a person’s accounts in the same way they would have- eg, if a niece was getting married and the m always have her nieces and nephews a £100 wedding present, that could be released.

It doesn’t give anyone the right to plunder your account.

OP, I’d question whether your sister actually did get legal advice. How a solicitor thinks a house can be taken in this manner is bizarre.

There have been quite a few solicitors contributing to the thread, basically saying no solicitor would give this advice as it’s batshit. And a pound to a penny says that if her sister did consult a solicitor, she certainly didn’t tell them the OP had an LPA, or that would have been the end of the conversation. An LPA (old POA) doesn’t give you the right to make gifts out of the donors assets unless it’s specifically mentioned in the LPA itself. It certainly doesn’t give the attorney the right to do anything that they themselves will benefit from. And even if the donor has dementia the attorney must make every effort to include them in any decision made on their behalf - capacity is fluid and if the donor has the capacity at any time, then they must be consulted and their input considered. The LPA basically gives the attorney the responsibility that everything they do must be in the best interests of the donor. Which this most definitely is not. Personally I’m beginning to think it’s a wind up because I can’t actually believe someone would even think about doing this to a vulnerable person.

This is such bad advice I don’t know where to start. You can’t simply put your house in your children’s name in order to sidestep care fees - the Local Authority will investigate and they can go back as far as they like into the financial affairs of the person needing care. They will find out and if they consider that the person could reasonably have expected to need care at the time they signed away their assets, they will consider it deprivation of assets and will assess the person as though they still have the property. In certain cases Local Authorities can also take legal action to recover funds from whoever benefited.

The OP already has power of attorney (LPA) and her mother already has a diagnosis of dementia, so basically doesn’t have the capacity to agree to any of what’s being proposed. And people who have worked all their lives are not entitled to help with care fees at the tax payers expense, if they have the means to pay for it themselves. The OP’s sister is basically proposing to steal their mothers’ money and put it in a joint account in her and the OP’s name, and transfer the deeds to the house in their two names. This is illegal - it’s stealing. As the LPA, the OP is expected to act in her mothers’ best interests. The mother can use the funds in the bank and the proceeds of the sale of her home to pay for a better level of care when she needs it. Instead they are proposing to steal her money and her house, and leave her at the mercy of the local authority when it comes to care facilities. Not to mention, as outlined in one of the OP’s posts, trying to get her will rewritten so they can tailor it to what they want. Do you really think this is in the mothers’ best interests ? Of course not, and if the OP, as the LPA for her mother, doesn’t stop this, she will end up in serious trouble because the buck stops with her.

So basically there’s no point in saving or paying a mortgage in order to leave something for your children/ grandchildren, because you just have to use it for care when your old anyway. Suppose I’m one of the “grabby” ones but I’ll be transferring anything I’ve got to my kids before I get old.

No, the ultimate levelling up that the country needs where this is concerned, is a proper, regulated care system that doesn’t gouge the elderly to line the pockets of fat cat for profit care chains and their shareholders. At the moment there’s a two tier system - those who can’t pay because they don’t have the assets, get free care. Those who have assets pay - and in those care homes who take Local Authority funded residents, they pay at a higher rate so that care homes can provide discounted places to the LA. So you have privately funded residents essentially contributing from their own funding source, to the care of those who haven’t made provision for themselves.

A better system of ‘levelling up’ would be to introduce a ring fenced tax similar to NI, which is paid according to income. This would then fund the care system and everyone would contribute something towards their care in later life. There will inevitably be people who don’t end up needing care, but that’s the gamble, and everyone would have the reassurance of knowing they were covered if and when they needed it.