To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

This is called deliberate deprivation of assets and it won't work (quite rightly), I am not sure what sort of solicitor she saw but he needs to be struck off.

It will not avoid care home fees and it will not avoid IHT

www.wilsonbrowne.co.uk/guides/a-guide-to-deliberate-deprivation-of-assets-and-what-they-are/

OMG ! You are the protector of your mother and your family. I would go to see a STEP qualified solicitor by yourself. They will advise you on power of attorney for your mother (for 1. finance and 2. health and medical). This does not mean you take her freedoms and finance - Broadly it empowers you to act in her interests help her make the choices she would make herself if she could. This is really important where you're mother has the onset of dementia - as she can grant you these powers now whilst she still has the competence to do so. Also make sure your solicitor actually 'files' the registration for power of attorney, they sometimes advise that they are signed and then filed later - to save you the £ filing fee. But the problem with this is often when the point in time of filing occurs - they need to check they are still constitute valid consent (and there may be issues especially if your sister is being tricky or your mothers capacity deteriorates and she is unable to demonstrate this is what she intends). There are also a number of financial structures that you can use to help ring fence assets (in terms of care costs - although you mustn't fall foul of the deprivation of assets rules). In addition for IHT purposes your mother can gift a certain amount every year or alternatively can make PETs (which are tapered from inheritance Tax and may escape IHT completely is she lives long enough). All of these things are in everyone's interests. Additionally there is a care cap coming in, and changes to rules on the level of income one reduces to (before the state helps pay for care). Further rules exist in terms of calulation of the level of assets before the state steps in and pays. There are new rules coming in on this too. Also there are restrictions on being able to take the value of the house into account for care cost purposes - namely if the individual is living in it - OR if a person above a certain age or certain connected family member is also living in the house. Care with dementia is difficult and its often difficult to keep a person who has advanced dementia in their house. You need to look at all of these things and work together with clear goals of both protecting and caring for your mother, and each other, and perhaps even having a bit of an inheritance that she would want you to have. Start with a STEP qualified solicitor, and powers of attorney ( make sure you hold the power - or hold it jointly with your sister. Don't let her hold it by herself). Caring for older relatives is really difficult and emotionally exhausting, do your best to hold everyone together.

You will have to pay the full cost of your care if:

you have savings worth more than £23,250
you own your own property (this only applies if you're moving into a care home and no one else lives at home)

above piece taken from council website

the piece in bracket is really relevant, if your sister was to move into your mothers home, (which was the original suggestion) then at a later date your mother needed to go into a home - then the home couldn't be sold to pay for your mothers care as your sister lives in the home

As PP have said it is deprivation of assets. If you mother needs care the council will ask questions about the property transfer, they can go back more than 3 years. They will look at if there was a care need when the transfer took place which there is. As POA you have to act in your mother's best interests and this is not in her best interests.

@abstractplantpot I would be really surprised if a solicitor had given her that advice. If I were you, I'd start by contacting adult social services to register a concern as your mother is at risk of financial abuse (I'm being polite about your sister); then see a solicitor.

Did she Call Saul for legal advice?

That's awful and unnecessary. My husbands grandma went into a "free" home, after a stroke. She went there for free for 12 weeks, while they assessed her assets/savings. Because she had a home, they explained she'd be charged a low fee. However the home was horrible and she wasn't happy there, fortunately we found a better home for a higher fee. It was so worth paying extra, for the quality of staff/meals/equipment/trips and activities. If your mother has dementia, it's best to find a home that specialises in it. One with dementia was removed from the home, as they couldn't cope with her. She needed restricting and one to one, when agitated. The home should be sold to ensure she goes into a good, supportive home that meets her needs. I'm sorry to say your sisters being very greedy and not thinking of your mum's care. Here in the UK, it's 7 years or less when it has to be declared.

I think your sister is having a hard time here.
She didn’t go to a secret meeting, and she didn’t do anything behind your back.

You keep coming back to the point about your mum’s care, but that wasn’t what a solicitor meeting would particularly advise upon.

I think it’s OK to talk about the issues separately, as long as you then bring the conversations back together.

It sounds to me like you need to attend an appointment with the solicitor together. Not because your sister is hoodwinking you, but because a lay person passing on what they think they understood is likely to be wrong.

Just because your mum has dementia, doesn’t mean she doesn’t still have mental capacity to arrange Last Power of Attorney. That’s a doctor’s decision.

If she has mental capacity, then she can transfer the house to you now, retaining the life interest herself.

That’s not “dodgy” - it’s her property, and her choice. Which is not to say that you might not be hit for inheritance tax within 7 years, or deprivation of assets for care home fees for an unspecified number of years. But it’s not wrong to do it.

If she has lost mental capacity and you need to apply for LPA rather than her appoint you, it’s more complicated because you’d have to show that moving the house to your names was in her best interests - which I don’t think it is.

But the idea that your sister is trying to minimise the money going on care home fees or inheritance tax is just sensible planning. Not money grabbing at all. I hope my children are as sensible!

I think the point about possibly living there was just checking if that would make the claim that it was her (sister’s) house valid to stop it being used for care home fees. Sounds like the solicitor has told her it comes down to legal ownership not residency. When my FIL was in a home, legally he still owned 50% of the house MIL was still living it.

Which incidentally was 50% because they changed Joint Tenants to Tenants in Common, so that he could Will his share to their children, and not have MIL’s potential care fees use it all up. All perfectly legal and supported by their solicitor.

I don’t get the sense that your sister is trying to screw her mother or you - only HMRC, and only in legal ways!

Managing your mother’s care is a separate topic.

You sound a bit clueless OP you’ve seen the outrage on this thread; take action. See a solicitor asap.

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-10821651/amp/Can-use-power-attorney-sell-mums-house-split-cash.html

This is not the same situation, but I think it has some interesting and relevant points.

I'd be stunned if a solicitor actually advised your sister in the way you have described. This would be deprivation of assets - read more about it on the Age UK website - for which there is no 'time limit'.

@abstractplantpot

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket

You will not be pushed in to another tax bracket unless it is a very large amount of money which earns a lot of interest but you are right to be cautious about what your sister is trying to do.

When she says she has to look out for herself - ask her who is looking out for your mum? I think it likely that she hasn’t properly considered priorities and asked the solicitor about inheritance and the advice given is based on that priority. If she had made it clear that your mothers care was paramount the advice would have been different. Does she have Power of Attorney for finances?

It might not be relevant to the OP's situation but just to clarify...
Just because someone has a diagnosis of dementia, it does not automatically mean they lack capacity in the legal sense. It is quite possible to retain legal capacity in the early stages of dementia.

Sorry no solicitor would suggest this unless she told them she was scared you did the same ?? Do you think your mum is able to stay in her home much longer ? What would your mum want ? Your mum care is the priority here , anything left is then there when she passed away but should not be yours or your sisters priority while your mum is alive

Yes, it’s not just 3 years. If you disposed of an asset once it became clear your Mum may need care then the cancel can go after you.
My Mum tried to do this once she had been diagnosed with Parkinsons, her solicitor advised her that once she had the diagnosis she couldn’t set up a trust or transfer assets as it was likely she would need care at some point.

^She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.
She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.^

I don't really get it @abstractplantpot . Your mum will get the same care it just would be more likely to be paid for by the council etc to a greater extent than would otherwise be the case (depending on any savings mum has), rather than the money for care coming out of the value of the house for a considerable sum before it was paid for by the council.

The amount of care your mum will get will not be effected in any way.

This needs to be done ASAP (but your mum will have to agree to it unless you or your sister has power of attourney.)

If it's done near to the time your mum may need residential care, it can be more likely to be seen as a schizzle to get out of care home costs.

Don't quote me on every detail above.

But I'm sure of this- but your mum's care won't be effected at all.

Why does your sister need access to DM's money? If you have POA and she's refusing to discuss care needs then she definitely has not requirement for a nice fresh bank account full of your mother's money.

I'm beginning to doubt she even saw a solicitor.

I'm a little confused, granted I've never had to deal with anything like this (thank goodness). 🌸

It could sound like she's being awful and trying to take the money but it's not 100% clear to me that she is not just wanting to act on the legal advice she has received and protect her mum's money while she's alive/independent from being used on care homes that could otherwise be funded?

I am only assuming this based on what you have said. She has told you so I haven't lost hope that there is an above board motive. I would not be comfortable with any sibling, myself included, having sole control and access to the money if it were me though. I'd want a joint account with a record of transactions.

If you guys are taking her money while she's relatively independent (mentally at least) and not letting her have full access to it, that is elder abuse surely?

Did you get a solicitor to draw up the POA for your mum?

Go back to them and explain everything. Let them advise you.

Your sister is trying to protect herself. You need to do the same, firstly and most importantly for your mum - then for you and your family.

I am sorry, but I suspect neither of you will inherit the house and it will need to be sold to pay for your mums long term care.

I also don’t think she’s seen a solicitor. It’s beyond shameful . Trying to take from her mother like that before she’s even dead. You read about these people.

you have poa.a responsibility to not let your cunt of a sister rob her like this. Her assets are to be used for your mother. They are hers. You and your sister can take what’s left after. But not before. Not like this. This is outright theft. If you agree to it you are complicit.

If you and your sis are providing the care yourselves @abstractplantpot , then that is completely and utterly uneffected in any way whatsoever by any financial changes to the property or where your sister lives. It would only be effected if either of you stopped doing as much for some reason.

That house will be sold if she needs to go into care. It will be proved that it was transferred to avoid cage costs. I’d just let her carry on and get the shuck of her life.

OP - there are some, at best, ill-informed comments on this thread. Please see legal advice, with your Mum, from an appropriately qualified and experienced solicitor. Age UK, the Alzheimer's Society and Dementia UK all have good websites (and phone helplines) which will probably be of help too.

Sorry I've just reread and can see she has already been diagnosed with dementia :(

I would be 100% honest and open in these situations. I don't think there's any harm in saying that you aren't comfortable with only one person having access to the money especially as you have POA. If your mum is already at the stage of needing care it's unlikely to make it to 3 years before you need to use it for her care anyway, surely?

Rereading your comments about how she's already said she's protecting her own interests, that just sounds awful, your mum is still alive!