No not everyone has ADHD

[HobnobsChoice]

My sister in law has over the last few months come to the conclusion that she azxnd her child have ADHD. Which they might well do. Certainly my nephew has something going on. Fine, they get their diagnosis and support etc.
But since reading about ADHD she is now claiming almost everyone she knows has ADHD. Both of her parents, both of her exes, one of my kids, her colleague, her former neighbour.

All she talks about is ADHD, traits of ADHD, effects of ADHD. We literally can't have a cup of tea without it being discussed and her suggesting that Person A couldn't do DIY because they probably have ADHD or that person B can't lock a door because they have ADHD. She doesn't seem to realise that someone can just be crap at something without it being indicative od neurodiversity.
Am I being unreasonable to ask her to stop talking about it all the time and remind her that she is a civil servant and in no way qualified to making such sweeping generalisations. And that it's becoming quite frustrating and boring that we no longer talk about anything else. Or is her fixation on this a sign that she probably does have ADHD and she cannot help it.
(To not be accused of drip feeding.She's in her late 30s, a single parent in a responsible role and never had any difficulties at school or university or home which would typically suggest ADHD according to her parents and my husband (her brother). I am aware of masking but they genuinely cannot remember her ever struggling either socially or academically. She's always been employed in either voluntary or public sector and done well in her jobs.)

@Onnabugeisha

Any research for that? It all sounds very black and white and overly medicalised. I mean it’s like saying you can “treat” autism.

Sex matters in terms of presentation but I would love to see some valid research on what you’ve said “they are thinking” 🤔.

Theyre now thinking that the male ADHD trajectory is it starts in childhood and then 2/3rds it goes remission, probably because it’s being successfully treated in many boys. However, for girls, they are now thinking most ADHD isn’t “missed” in childhood but actually develops in adulthood, commonly in middle age. So actually we are seeing that sex matters in terms of ADHD.

Could this* *not be attributed to menopause? There does seem to be a very large number of 30/40/50 something women being diagnosed or self diagnosing. Does assessment require blood tests to rule out things like thyroid? Lots of the symptoms crossover lots of other conditions.

@User98866

Also males don’t just suddenly find their ADHD disappears into adulthood. The hyperactivity potentially but not the fundamentals.

I am pretty sure they rule out menopause in an assessment. Also, if it were menopause and not ADHD, then the ADHD medication wouldn’t work, when it does. The women would need HRT, not ADHD medication. Too menopausal “brain fog” is only one of five required symptoms to be diagnosed with ADHD and they don’t manifest with menopause. Some, menopause has the exact opposite symptom to ADHD ( ie menopausal fatigue vs ADHD restlessness)

Around 2/3rds do. Their ADHD goes sub clinical and they no longer meet the diagnostic criteria for adult ADHD. It’s not “sudden” it’s from child hood to adulthood so gradually over twenty years or so.

I posted a bunch of research on one of these two ADHD threads last night. Give me a tick and I will rustle them up and repost.

@Onnabugeisha

I think I read that research and I was sceptical for many reasons, it was on another thread.

I mean that’s another thread in itself so much “research”. You can literally always find the opposite theory/view. So research just bores me now, even that is saturated 🤦‍♀️.

@Onnabugeisha

Me personally I only ever knew one boy who had an ADHD diagnosis in primary school (early 90s). My mum was friends with his mum and still is.

As an adult he now has “bipolar” and he’s in and out of hospital. Go figure! They probably just land themselves another label I should imagine.

Also, if it were menopause and not ADHD, then the ADHD medication wouldn’t work,

Is this correct though? I thought it had been found that the medication works for everyone, hence people taking them as study aids. You don’t have to have adhd to react to amphetamins! Saying the drugs work so you must have X,Y, Z isn’t a very good test. If I took tranquillisers I’d feel more relaxed but that wouldn’t confirm that I’d had anxiety before taking them.

I think it’s quite worrying how many people are taking these meds. Especially targeted at women and girls it seems.

Here you go.
Late onset ADHD

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686687/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35610630/
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/neurodevelopmental-nature-of-attentiondeficit-hyperactivity-disorder-in-adults/782403DAF07FAAED7BDA6A4FC3B4F0C0

Acquired ADHD
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-psychiatry/article/abs/treatment-of-adhd-secondary-to-traumatic-brain-injury/0EC21E21AD0780E50C4F17F9DB37150E
www.additudemag.com/traumatic-brain-injury-adhd-risk-children/
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/298478

Not really, if a woman is suffering from menopause, taking ADHD drugs isn’t going to help her as she is suffering from an hormonal imbalance.

Theyre now thinking that the male ADHD trajectory is it starts in childhood and then 2/3rds it goes remission, probably because it’s being successfully treated in many boys. However, for girls, they are now thinking most ADHD isn’t “missed” in childhood but actually develops in adulthood, commonly in middle age. So actually we are seeing that sex matters in terms of ADHD.

That's totally against my own experiences. As part of formal diagnosis one of the criteria is that the patient has had it since a child, and seeing as it's a developmental disorder then once the brain stops developing then you can't just acquire it in later age. Some people do seem to "grow out" of it, but I'm wondering if that's a lot to do with people subconsciously developing coping mechanisms.

Treatment in itself won't "cure" ADHD as it's caused by the brain working differently. In the same way that painkillers just suppress my pain symptoms from my arthritis, and classes have helped me to cope with the pain in different ways, the ADHD treatments are either medicinal which affects the relevant parts of the brain temporarily (literally just hours), or coaching/other talking therapies that teach coping mechanisms.

It was certainly "missed" in me, as ADHD wasn't really recognised in the 60's plus everybody "knows it only affects boys" - I had classic combined symptoms as a child. Same with my relative I mentioned up thread, has always had the being late and other classic inattention symptoms. It was also missed in my DBro until he hit 50 and took himself for diagnosis, probably because in the 70's it still wasn't a recognised "thing", but his symptoms are as bad today as they ever were.

But yes sex does matter in ADHD, as a) females present a little differently, b) they are more likely to be predominantly inattentive which means less disruptive so less likely to be noticed and c) many still consider it a male thing only. Sort of like the way females often present differently to men with heart attacks, so those are more often missed.

@Onnabugeisha your first link above gives me a 404 message. The second says there could be a link, but also suggests that ADHD could be the cause of the traumatic brain injury - ADHD is knows to increase risk taking and having accidents of many kinds especially driving accidents. They are very careful to state association rather than cause and effect.

Please can you learn how to do links in your posts too, as copying & pasting great long strings is a pain! 😃

I’m not sure why the links are not working, never had that issue before. Thank you for letting me know, I will see what I can do.

Are these working?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686687/

bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-022-03978-0

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-psychiatry/article/abs/treatment-of-adhd-secondary-to-traumatic-brain-injury/0EC21E21AD0780E50C4F17F9DB37150E
(Adult)
“Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder secondary to traumatic brain injury (ADHD/TBI) is one of the most common neurobehavioral consequences of TBI, occurring in 20% to 50% of individuals post-injury.”

www.additudemag.com/traumatic-brain-injury-adhd-risk-children/
(older study on children)

happy to find more 😊

Did I link this one? It’s about how older adults being assessed for dementia sometimes actually have ADHD:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35610630/

Another question, if it is across the board that women are and have been missed for diagnosis due to the school system in the 70s/ 80s and 90s not understanding the presentation in girls then how is it that the only people I know who are going for (almost exclusively private) diagnosis are white, middle class women?
People of colour or poor 'common' women like me don't want more shit that can be used to discriminate against us in the work place! Being able to admit that you're disorganised and live in absolute chaos, forgetting everything that isn't relating to work is privilege.
I wonder if part of it is looking for a tribe...

I can answer this as I went to the GP because I suspected ADHD in early 2020. I also have hypothyroidism and am menopausal so the doctor insisted on properly regulating my thyroid and hormone levels generally before going any further with an ADHD diagnosis. As I never remember to take thyroxine for a sustained period or, if I do, never get round to renewing my prescription, I have still got nowhere with a diagnosis.

If you aren’t listening what’s the point in posting?

adhd affects every aspect of your life not just being a bit disorganised. You don’t think you have it, great. For those who are struggling, it’s perfectly ok for them to seek a diagnosis and for you to suggest they’re only doing it to “find their tribe” is incredibly ignorant. Maybe you’re looking for reasons to dislike other women - fuck knows what your reasons are.

@HammergoHammer I agree, and whilst I do not doubt for some people it is extremely beneficial, I do see many people finding their tribe as one of the most important aspects. I don’t know why people would argue against that as most I know are very open that it has been a way of finding like minded people. There is a certain amount of privilege at play, it can cost money for an adult diagnosis which is out of reach for many.

For me, in my very humble opinion. I don’t really want to argue against adults or people wanting to understand themselves better, wanting to feel connected to others with similar traits. Or for teenagers for that matter exploring aspects of themselves. I can’t really see anything wrong with that.

What I do find concerning, however, is the stretching of clinical diagnosis to the point where they are meaningless, where people’s significant, and I mean significant struggles (such as still wearing nappies age 8 like my DC), cannot be lumped together with very different presentations in the same diagnosis. That for me is hugely problematic on so many levels that I don’t know quite where to start. But it does impact my child directly, it directs services away… I could start a whole thread.

I think that one clear way would be to call these presentations a different name entirely, separate them out. One clear and obvious way is those that are

• significant in their presentation on functionality eg motor skills
• significant from childhood with big delays (speech, milestones)

But ADHD doesn't impact motor skills or usually cause speech and motor delays? For an ADHD diagnosis there does have to be a significant impact to your life and it does have to have been present in childhood. I had to gather report cards and had a letter written by a former teacher to support.

@Mylittlesandwich what it does impact is concentration in all tasks. My daughter has to have a 1:1 in the toilet to remind her to how to do the stages, e.g. wipe bum, pull up pants, put toilet paper in toilet, put lid down, flush, wash hands. She's eight. This is not standard behaviour.
ADHD definitely has an overlap with motor skills and executive functioning. It's amazing that people only claim the less problematic symptoms rather than the whole illness. Yes it's a spectrum, but if it isn't affecting your life to the point where you cannot safely live or maintain healthy relationships or stay employed then why bother with a diagnosis?
As previous posters have already said, it's going to make things harder from those who are more profoundly affected if the very high functioning people are the most vocal. People like my daughter are really embarrassed about their struggles, I'm talking nightly tears about how everyone 'gets it' and she doesn't, how she gets constantly told by the teacher to focus and she just can't. She thinks she's naughty and stupid. Kids are still cruel.
Very few of the 'recently diagnosed/ self diagnosed' have been through what I have and what she has. These include:

• never being dropped off at school without crying. Quite common in adhd kids especially ones who struggle with time perception. Fight or flight kicks in, she runs out the playground, hides behind the sofas.
• not invited to things
• being asked to leave swimming club after months of side eyes from parents as my daughter was having a lot of one to one support from the teacher in order to progress.
• maths tutor quit as they didn't feel they had the experience in order to teach her
• distance from peers due to emotional regulation, behaviour, weird habits (constant thumb sucking, regurgitating food into a cup, constant talking, very little regulation in terms of what you talk about to who etc)

So if you're someone who just bobbed through life then I'm afraid I don't recognise my daughters experience and your experience as the same. If you're parents didn't think you had it or didn't notice, then I don't recognise that experience either. We are in endless meetings, endless pushing for funding or adaptations, it dominates our life.

@Mylittlesandwich if you had to submit report cards from school then you are not who I'm talking about. You have provided secondary evidence to support your own self reported symptoms. Was that through the NHS?
I don't trust the integrity of SOME of the 'gun for hire' psychiatrists (as in the don't do much clinical work apart from private reports.) I'm afraid that there are people out there who will write what people want to hear and you can never disprove or prove it so they have little to lose.

@Mylittlesandwich with ADHD there is a big impact in childhood with executive functioning, such as attention span, ability to regulate emotions, ability to organize thoughts. My DS with ADHD was markedly different from peers whether this was in toddler groups or primary school, and had much greater difficulty engaging with tasks that required listening, was constantly on the go. This resulted in developmental delays such as very late reading.

I was citing autism also because some other posters were also talking about this. But I guess I was making the point that a child with ADHD who is significantly impacted growing up, is very different from others who present as ADHD as adults and I think it would be much clearer if it did not have the same name or diagnosis. As using the same diagnosis I believe causes problems, it can ‘center’ the diagnosis of ADHD on a very different presentation, it can cause misunderstandings of those who have had it from childhood.

If you didn’t have significant executive functioning challenges as a child, then your ADHD is different from kids who do.

Aside from research, the diagnostic criteria for ADHD used in the UK require symptoms to have been present since childhood and evidence is sought, unless it isn't available e.g. a 65 yo may not have living parents or school reports.

Its hard to believe that ND adults are taking services away from high needs children considering that there are no services for us.

You couldn't imagine things I went through as a child if you look at me now.p