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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 15/01/2023 08:34

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 23:08

@findmybalance let me be clear.

I don't want your penis or any other penis in the toilets or changing rooms of me, my friends, my sisters and my nieces.

Can I be completely clear about that yes? No penises. OK???

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2023 23:13

<applauds FlirtsWithRhinos > Amazingly clear explanation

Annabelle - Former Female Prisoner

^“Women in prison are human, they are human and their lives are just as important as anyone else on this earth. These women are daughters and sisters, mothers and wives. Women are not worth less than men and they are certainly not any less deserving of privacy, dignity and respect because they are in prison. Female prisoners are extremely vulnerable and the fact that they cannot leave the prison automatically puts them at a higher risk of abuse, they have no choice but to live in very close proximity with violent men who have committed rape, murder and serious sexual and violent offences against women.&

These men are extremely dangerous to women. In fact these men have disproportionately higher rates of sexual offending than the men who don’t claim to be women, approximately 2.5 times more! The fact that men are in the women’s estate is appalling enough, but to serve these women up to these predators on a rainbow platter in a place where they have no escape is beyond evil to me. How can anyone say they have a trauma informed approach when looking after these women whilst forcing them to live with violent males? They are either lying or they are wilfully ignorant. Both excuses are unacceptable.

Women in the female estate usually come from backgrounds punctuated by male violence. They have experienced domestic violence, rape, sexual assault and much more. These vulnerable women come from households where domestic abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse and gambling are all seen as normal every day life. What we are doing in these situations is criminalising trauma and poverty. Most of these women are imprisoned for non-violent crimes. Female criminal behaviour is very different to male criminal behaviour.

Allow me to share some of my experiences during my 7-week remand in a female prison. This is something I’ve put to the back of my mind in order for me to survive without exacerbating my trauma. Like most of the female prisoners, I’ve also experienced all of the aforementioned traumas and more.

To be taken to prison is frightening, it’s traumatic and it’s highly dangerous. When I arrived I was terrified, I was disorientated, embarrassed and in so much pain from missing my children. I couldn’t believe this was happening to me. When I realised I was to be housed with two men I thought I might actually pass out. I felt the colour drain from my face and my heart began to pump at a higher rate than it already was. My knees began to feel weak and the tidal wave of panic crashed over me. I was having a full blown panic attack. Here I was in prison, with no means of escape, no privacy, no dignity and no hope. I was worrying about my future, my children, their school work, their home life, their extra curricular activities, their homework. Who would look after them in my absence? Who will keep them safe and feed them? Who will make sure the effects on them are minimal? Will I be able to see them? My head was swimming with worry for my children and I couldn’t think about anything else.

I was on a mission to keep my head down, get a job to keep me busy and keep as much contact with my children as I could and NOTHING was going to jeopardise that for me. My aim was to get through this horrific experience as best I could and by keeping myself busy with education, exercise and a job in the prison. I have serious mental health conditions that I’ve never been able to get professional help with and I was very aware that with the way I was feeling there was a possibility that I could very quickly become suicidal.

Yet here is a man in front of me. There was no mistaking it, no denying it, no getting away from it. This man was huge, way over 6ft and very heavy. He wore male clothing, he had a male voice, he wore no make up, he took no wrong sex hormones, and had no GRC. What he did have was a penis. Like over 95% of these men who claim to be women do. He was also in prison for domestic abuse against his female partner and here he was lording it over the vulnerable women.

We were forced to call him by a female name. We were forced to use she/her pronouns for this man, this man who attacks women. I couldn’t breathe, I couldn’t catch my breath, I was frozen to the spot and I was frantically trying to work out if I was hallucinating. This couldn’t be real, how could this be possible? How is it possible that in a female prison I would need to worry about being attacked and/or raped by a man? A man who has committed violence against women. Violence serious enough to land this man in prison. It seemed to me I’d been dropped into the fiery bowels of hell and this man had just been given a golden ticket to heaven.

From that moment on I couldn’t concentrate properly. I found it very difficult to feel safe and spent the whole time in prison on constant high alert. You can imagine my shock when I discovered there were in fact TWO men in the prison I was in. The second man was serving time for murder and just like the first he had no GRC and still had his penis. I felt like someone had let the foxes into the hen house and I didn’t want to leave my cell. We didn’t have showers in our cells and so we had to shower in the communal shower block with only a curtain for safety. Women who are traumatised and vulnerable are having to be naked and shower with men in their spaces and some decided not to shower at all.

We do fear we will be raped or assaulted and that is not something any woman should ever have to worry about. This certainly shouldn’t be a worry any female prisoner ever has. I made sure that I went to the doctor in the prison and I was given a contraceptive coil. Something I have never used nor wanted to use but I couldn’t take the risk of being raped and becoming pregnant and so I went to the medical bay and had a procedure done that before I’d never wanted or needed. Women should never be in the position where they need to even contemplate these things. Soon I need to make another appointment to have this device removed which fills me with dread due to being a rape and sexual assault survivor. I cant believe I have to go through this again, four years after leaving prison, it almost feels like another violation on my body that I didn’t want. As usual it stems from men.

I didn’t want to see men there but I did. I didn’t want to share showers with men but I was forced to. I didn’t want to see men prance about naked in my shower area yet there they were doing just that. I didn’t want men in my gym class but they were there. I tried to escape them by working in the salon to no avail. The murderous man worked there. I attended the education classes and still there were men. Locked in a holding cell with no prison officers, waiting to attend a visit with my children and who’s sitting next to me? A male prisoner! What could have happened to me in those 15 minutes while I was locked in that holding cell without any protection, with a violent man and no means of escape? Is this a risk I have to take every time I want to see my children? Should I be placed at risk? Do I not matter because I’m a woman? Or is it because I’m a woman in prison?

There is no escaping these men from morning until night and unless women refuse to work and remain in their cells they can’t be safe. These women don’t deserve to be confined to a cell where they have no interaction with others. They don’t deserve to be ostracised from the other women due to trauma and fear. Why do these women need to lose out on education, exercise, religious groups, mental health support and family visits?

Women are tiptoeing on a never ending bed of eggshells every time a man is placed in their prison. The crippling fear that you might accidentally call this man “he/him” is palpable. The punishments for “misgendering” these men vary. A woman can be charged, a woman can be written up which affects too many things to mention. She can have privileges withdrawn. She can be locked in her cell for longer than the usual 23 hours. She can have visitation removed and she can also be transferred to a different prison. Literally evicted for using the wrong pronoun (well the correct pronoun). The effects of doing this to vulnerable women are endless but the thing that kills them the most is the fact that they are often moved hundreds of miles away from the families because there are so few women’s prisons in the UK. Do these women really deserve to be dragged through the criminal justice system like this? Like they’re worthless? Do their children deserve any of this?

I understand some of these men may well be classed as vulnerable when placed in the male estate. But guess what? Prisons have a way of looking after vulnerable male prisoners in the male estate, they’ve managed to do it up until now so what’s changed? There are many, many men who are more vulnerable than a man who changes his pronouns. Gay men, skinny men, effeminate men, younger men, older men, men with serious mental health issues, men with addictions, men who have committed crimes against children and many more. These men are far more vulnerable and yet they are never transferred to a women’s prison. Go figure!

This is because it’s unethical, evil, extremely dangerous and downright wrong to house any male prisoner with female prisoners and we ALL know this. Why we’re pretending we don’t is quite frankly abhorrent. WOMEN ARE NOT HUMAN SHIELDS.”

FOJN · 15/01/2023 23:13

Very odd. Why don't they want to dissociate themselves from such people?

It's a mystery!🤔

Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 23:18

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision that is terrifying.

Thanks for posting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/01/2023 23:18

vs a transwoman be attacked or even killed in a males changing room for being trans.

Then I've got some excellent news for you which you'll no doubt find extremely reassuring.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2023 23:25

There are so many awful testimonies like that on here. kpssinfo.org/women-in-prison-speak-out/

Kitkatcatflap · 15/01/2023 23:26

This makes me so cross. Having a penis and claiming to be a woman, using a women's changing room, why would you walking around exposing it? I have never been body confident so wrap a towel or sarong when I'm changing at the pool, gym or beach. No one has seen me naked BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THEM TO. Exposed male genitalia in a woman's changing is not about being trans but a sleazy fetish.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/01/2023 23:26

TheKeatingFive · Today 22:57

a transwoman be attacked or even killed in a males changing room for being trans

Firstly, some evidence this is happening please.

This article which was written by someone with a son who is trans, is called,
“The Truth About Trans Murders” January 11th 2022

unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

There had been 11 trans murders in the U.K. since 2008 according to a list compiled by Transgender Europe. On investigation, though, one of those deaths had been by suicide while prison, while another was ultimately ruled as non suspicious. So the number of unlawful deaths was 9.

By contrast there had been 12 murders committed by transgender people between 2008 - 2017.

For context, the number of women killed by men during the same period was 1800. So much for our alleged “cis-privilege”.

Re, the nine victims, further into the article the writer adds:

….is not entirely certain that all the victims themselves identified with the label “transgender”. The second is that the motives behind these crimes are more complex than straightforward “transphobia”.

Three of the nine victims were murdered by a violent punter while working as prostitutes; another was killed by their husband, who lived on her earnings from prostitution. Another of the victims died at the hands of someone who was also trans-identifying. Another was a gay man who cross-dressed occasionally, and the motive for the murder has been ascribed to both transphobia and homophobia. Two of the murders were linked to drug use.

In other words, despite the way their deaths are often framed in the media and by activists, the large majority of these trans victims were not killed simply for being trans. Almost half appear to involve prostitution — a fact that has been quietly brushed under the carpet.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/01/2023 23:28

"Ok. I’m sorry you’re feeling vulnerable and are struggling to accept times are changing faster than you’re able to adapt to them."

Wow! Shades of 'accept your oppressive overlord' there.

Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 23:33

@YetAnotherSpartacus right?

We won't accept it and we will fight back against the oppressors. It's just gross of them. The irony that they want to be women but hate women. Makes no sense to me.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/01/2023 23:37

We are coming from the same point of view - rape shouldnt be used in a wider discussion. I stand by that.

So women who have been raped, assaulted and who are the victims of men's violence should remain silent but males who claim to be women can talk about the potential for violence against them to their hearts' content?

PoIIyPandemonium · 15/01/2023 23:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Hillcrest2022 · 15/01/2023 23:43

@pollypandemoniumsigh...

Yup, this woman would rather put herself at risk in support of an agenda driven by people who couldn't give a shit about her. Ridiculous.

PoIIyPandemonium · 15/01/2023 23:44

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/01/2023 23:46

Is this really the worst thing that can happen in the world. I would much rather a video of me ended up on the internet vs a transwoman be attacked or even killed in a males changing room for being trans.

What a disgusting comment!

How many women, children, and young girls are you willing to trade?

Festivfrenzy · 16/01/2023 03:03

YANBU
Men in a dress are not women.
Men who want to shock, horrify, annoy, frighten women and children by showing their penis are common or garden flashers.
Male sex offenders in a dress with blinky eyes and loads of make up are still male sex offenders.
Just because lots of women are too young or too ideologically captured to recognise these facts doesn't change any of these facts.
They crave attention whether negative or positive, and the more discussion about their penises and fetishes the better.
They are loving this whole debate- life is good for sex offenders atm and they'll stop at nothing to get what they want.
We need to stop at nothing to protect women and children from them - it's bloody terrifying

WandaWomblesaurus · 16/01/2023 03:25

ScrollingLeaves · 15/01/2023 22:38

I am sorry, I wrote that out the wrong way “Not wanting penises is bullying” was said by Wandawomblesaurus

Yes - as a "joke" on the "rules" as suggested by certain posters who would rather women shut up and put up. Sorry I should have made my pos clearer x

OP posts:
WandaWomblesaurus · 16/01/2023 03:34

@Grumpybutfunny
"Is this really the worst thing that can happen in the world. I would much rather a video of me ended up on the internet vs a transwoman be attacked or even killed in a males changing room for being trans."

This has got to be the most captured and disgusting post I've ever read on this subject and a new low for women. So would you rather my daughter have videos of her on the internet? She's 14.

What about six year olds?

What about those of us who are rape victims (who are not allowed to say that)

Where is your line on on women and girls being harassed and abused so you can protect men who quite frankly hate you enough to colonise your space and appropriate your experiences whilst resenting you.

You realise they won't pick you don't you? They won't pick you for their special magical favours. They won't pick you for being "kind".

Absolutely shameful.

OP posts:
WandaWomblesaurus · 16/01/2023 03:36

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/01/2023 23:37

We are coming from the same point of view - rape shouldnt be used in a wider discussion. I stand by that.

So women who have been raped, assaulted and who are the victims of men's violence should remain silent but males who claim to be women can talk about the potential for violence against them to their hearts' content?

Exactly and when JKR talked about her history she was mocked by the Body Shop on Twitter.

Women talking about being raped is twansphobic.

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 16/01/2023 04:17

Some women will always be brainwashed to protect predatory men. It's sad, but true. The same posters preferring their own victimization to a stranger's feelings (who doesn't give a damn about them) are no different than the women who stand by their criminal man. We all know your gang boyfriend would drop you the minute you've inconvenience him, but you love him no matter what.

Delphinium20 · 16/01/2023 04:32

Grumpybutfunny · 15/01/2023 18:47

@oviraptor21 just look at Malte.C who died defending woman from homophobic attacks, a lot of the data is American but just look atwww.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/report-says-at-least-32-transgender-people-were-killed-in-the-u-s-in-2022
At least 32 peopled KILLED in the US in one year. Not sex attacks or unwanted attention actually killed. Yes I think they are more vulnerable than individuals born XX.

You clearly have very little information about America and our violence. 32 murders for a group of people is blessedly low in our violent country. There were 24,576 recorded homicides in 2022. 1,011 of these murders were children under the age of 14.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Delphinium20 · 16/01/2023 05:03

4,618 women were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 2.8

19,958 men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 12.3

332 Native American men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 13.5.

11,935 Black men were murdered in the US in 2022. That's a rate of 52.7!!!!

Native American men make up roughly 1.4% of the US population. Pew Research in 2021 found that about 1.6% of US adults are transgender or non-binary. So similar sized populations.

32 vs 332 for a similar sized population.

My very rough math is putting the murder rate of transwomen to about 1.28 so BELOW the rate of women being murdered and FAR below the rates of male populations.

Delphinium20 · 16/01/2023 05:04

Data sourced from cdc.gov

Delphinium20 · 16/01/2023 05:07

The murder rate for US children ages 0-14 per 100k is 1.7.

Trans people and non-binary people are SAFER than children in the US.

Please let this sink in.

SideshowAuntSallly · 16/01/2023 05:58

Gym changing rooms worry me as we are completely exposed in there, no changing cubilcles, we use the showers so are completely vulnerable.

I don't know why women should be made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable especially when the trans woman could use the accessible changing room instead. And as not all disabilities are visible it shouldn't be a problem.

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