To not feel safe in changing rooms anymore?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

Another story about an inappropriate man in a woman's changing room - is this what we are going to see more of in the UK now too? Having been both flashed and sexually assaulted in a public place, this chills me to the bone. Men who get a thrill out of exposing themselves to women will use any opportunity to do so. To think that they won't abuse women's spaces is to be wilfully and dangerously naive.

YANBU - Not unreasonable to think that flashing is flashing regardless of self ID and magical feelings.

YABU - Be kind to men etc etc

Yes, brilliantly put. Just read it out to my kids (who are very interested in the topic!).

Well, that wee bit makes no sense.

If the boundary is biological sex, it really IS as simple as a simple "no".

It IS black and white. Male or female. One or t'other.

Pussy footing around and allowing some, extra special males, into those sealed off female only areas causes the issue.

It IS all, or nothing.

You keep ALL males out, or you have to allow ALL males in (seeing as trans is just a feeling, trans can be anybody, at any time).

I don't understand how you don't see this.

You know fine rightly this a common point of view.

No I don't. Most people accept that some male trans people have a distressing psychological condition where they feel they should have the body of the opposite sex.

This thread has got it all, a man who thinks he can dictate what women should and should not feel comfortable with, other women willing to give away women's rights with no regard for the women who could not participate in public life without single sex spaces, the argument's are that same as the were against gay rights in the 80's, transwomen are women and a belief that you fashion a vagina any of any old bit of skin.

Some people really hate women who think they should have rights.

Anyone remember the M+S women's underwear reviews written by men a few years ago. They could of order on line but thats not quite the same as photographing yourself in women's knickers on the women's changing room, wanking into them and then putting them back on the shop floor. I think that particular bloke had some rather derogatory names for the type of women he hope would find that underwear. Tell me again that men accessing women's spaces isn't a power move.

Not just women's underwear, it's M+S semen stained women's underwear.

Phew. Thank god for that

So according to certain posters on this thread:

They don't mind penises in our changing rooms so we should all not mind it.

Anyone who objects to penises is old and can't keep up with the times and that penises have magically evolved to be special.

All their friends don't mind penises so our daughters (however vulnerable they are) should like penises in their spaces.

If you don't like penises there's something wrong with you, you old hags. Be kind.

Did I miss anything?

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision ohhh you are so wrong it is rare but it does happen www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/true-hermaphroditism XX and XY chimera's are even more common and usually only discovered by accident.

Interestingly XY woman also are more likely to have brain characteristics in line with their XX counterparts suggesting a chromosome link. Typical sex organs associated with the gender identity of female are the phenotype typically expressed by XX individuals. But it also includes other characteristics such as identity and attraction.

So just because someone is XY expressing a XX phenotype doesn't make them any less eligible for the gender identity of female.

Remember these facilities are labelled by phenotype/identity not genotype. What people on this thread are arguing is they should be labelled by genotype not phenotype to protect against the few XY females who may be a risk to them.

As an individual doing a risk assessment of how I label my facilities I need to consider the risk posed by either option. My argument would be a XY woman is at more risk of serious violence that could result in death in a predominantly male phenotype environment. In contrast a XX woman is at less risk from the XY woman being in the female phenotype environment.

We're all transphobic.

Amendment to my summary in h post below

Anyone who doesn't like penises is transphobic.

How can sone xy people have brain characteristics more like xx brains when no such brain characteristics exist ?

All that science sounding stuff - it's a load of rubbish isn't it ?!

My argument would be a XY woman is at more risk of serious violence that could result in death in a predominantly male phenotype environment. In contrast a XX woman is at less risk from the XY woman being in the female phenotype environment.

Even if you had the slightest smidge of evidence for this (you clearly don't), its irrelevant to the situation in hand. The vast, vast majority of people identifying as transwomen are totally and unambiguously male.

@Grumpybutfunny How many of your examples of people with DSDs are fertile?

Did you read your link, or just google hermaphroditism and hope?

Ovotesticular Disorder of Sexual Development (True Hermaphroditism)

Ovotesticular disorder of sexual development (true hermaphrotidism), a rare and usually sporadic disorder, is defined as the coexistence of seminiferous tubules and ovarian follicles. Most patients have an ovotestis with either an ovary or a testis on the opposite side; a gonad in the scrotum is usually a testis but may be an ovotestis.

The genitalia are usually ambiguous, but they may appear completely masculine or feminine. The anatomy of the internal reproductive tract depends on the nature of the gonads, particularly whether they secrete antimüllerian hormone. A uterus or uterine horn is present in 90% of cases.

Do you see "people have been born with clitoris, vulva, penis and testicles all at once, honest" in your link?

No-one has "complete sets of both sex organs at birth" and this does not go anywhere close to saying they do. Again, you are being tricked by the existence of a word, and jumping to the conclusion that it describes a material phenomenon.

@findmybalance

TRA is an offensive term.

My apologies. What's the preffered umbrella term for the various groups who are actively pushing for the reallocation of our existing single sex provisions based on gender identity?

I am not, nor are others with these views, TRAs

And I have not called you a TRA.

I explained to you, in the context of you not denying that the idea that trans women and female people are interchangeable is a fantasy but asking why it is necessary to keep pointing it out knowing it could be hurtful to some trans women, that the reason it has become necessary to point out that this idea (that male bodied person who identifies as a woman is so interchangeable with a female person that they can slip into female provisions with no detriment whatsoever on the female people who need to use them) is a fantasy is because TRAs do take advantage of this compassionate reticence to state a hurtful truth to claim that such interchangeability is actually possible and indeed accepted by women.

To be 100% clear:

I'm not saying everyone who says "trans women are women" out of compassion is a TRA.

I am saying that unfortunately this compassion, well meaning as it may be, is being a used by those who are TRAs to make demands that cause harm (physical, emotional and political) to female people, and sadly until that stops happening, female people are forced for our own physical, emotional and political safety to highlight the reasons that we are not interchangeable with trans women, hurtful though that may be to those who wish that we were.

That said, I'm interested in why you consider TRA offensive, and what term you would choose for yourself to describe your pro-gender position?

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

pure.knaw.nl/portal/en/publications/a-sex-difference-in-the-human-brain-and-its-relation-to-transsexu

Science has prove that there is no such thing as a gendered brain: theconversation.com/you-dont-have-a-male-or-female-brain-the-more-brains-scientists-study-the-weaker-the-evidence-for-sex-differences-158005

Ah I see that despite the repeated pleas of people with DSD to not be used as a gotcha bu TRA they are as usual being used as a gotcha (when it really isn’t) by TRA

I do believe my bingo card is entirely filled up now 😆

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35883159/

@IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 that paper is also open for debate

Right, let's make brain imaging scans a compulsory part of the diagnosis process. In fact, let's say no-one can get a GRC unless he or she has had a brain imaging scan.

Deal?

I am not aware that there's any real overlap between people with DSDs and those who Trans-identify. It's only brought into the discussion to create confusion and obfuscation. It's not relevant at all.

Over 15 pages of one poster castigating women for the temerity of having boundaries.

We should know our place. Our boundaries and feelings and safety matter not a jot because some males want the validation of using our single sex spaces.

Any male, no matter their gender presentation, who doesn't care about trampling on women's boundaries is, by definition, a red flag.

Actually I don't think anyone thinks that.

The only time I ever see anyone suggest that suggest that all trans people are gaining entry for sexual purposes is when it is given as a strawman argument to discredit the actual argument, which is while most trans women may not be sexually motivated, we can't tell which trans women have a sexual motivation until they act on it, so if one prioritises female safety, privacy and dignity then all trans women have to be excluded, just as all men are excluded even though only a minority of men are sexual predators.

"Single sex spaces were instituted for a reason - and women and children are not there to be experimented upon, to see whether things get better or worse.

Their safety is paramount.

Why is it that when TW claim to feel "vulnerable" and "unsafe" in male spaces, everyone seems to jump to accommodate them (even though the statistics show that in the UK at least, they are the safest demographic), while when women express the same feelings of vulnerability and lack of safety, and also concerns about their children, they are dismissed as hysterical, even though the statistics bear out their fears?"

This ☝️a million times over!