To wonder whether this qualifies for compassionate leave?

[nhspolicy]

Situation as follows:

NHS employee, bereaved unexpectedly - think extended family member like Great Aunt/Uncle. Person was very close to the deceased person and was very distressed by the loss. 3 days absence from work following the news.

Which is the fairest option of these for the employee's manager to choose in respect of the above?

• compassionate/ special leave
• sick leave
• annual leave
• unpaid leave

Thanks.

I’m NHS and a union rep. We successfully negotiated our policy to make provision for this sort of situation in our policy. Manager’s discretion (and compassion) can’t be relied on.

if your policy states close relatives only, have a chat with your staff side & ask them to review/negotiate policy change.

annual leave or unpaid leave where I work.

Yes that’s fair enough and adds a clarity. If categories are explicit Means it’s not open to interpretation or guessing

We’ve negotiated similar for a lot of our policies, removing manager discretion. In practice there were vast discrepancies for staff depending on who they worked for. We’re finding our approach a much more workable and equitable solution. But then we’re lucky as our senior management team is committed to staff experience.

Most compassionate leave policies allow for some discretion because families are complicated. The day someone dies and the day of the funeral as compassionate leave would be reasonable in any situation where that person was significant in their life eg was a secondary caregiver whilst parents were working/ill for instance beyond what the relationship eg great aunt suggests.

Additional time i would expect to be annual leave or unpaid emergency leave unless they were in charge of organising the funeral in which case an additional day would be granted.

A manager arbitrarily chosing to record sick because no other category works is different

A manager suggesting to their distraught employee that they need to take some uncertified sick days for bereavement is also fine. I have done this. Why is this not OK?

your example is distraught,so unable to work. Therefore sick
someone gave example when she cannot categorise the leave she records as sick
Two different scenarios

FIL funeral, another country, have to take 3 days leave, only paid for 1!

Most leave of absence police's have a 'at managers discretion'.

Usually a 'great' aunt/uncle isn't in most policies, but a manager would know if this particular relative played a grandparent or even parental role in employees life. Therefore, it should be compassionate leave. If not then it is sick leave. It's only 3 days so it's not a huge issue taking sick leave (unless they have a poor sickness record already).

Why sick leave? Surely that’s for illness - annual leave surely? Or unpaid?

The ranking of relatives likely to cause the most grief is so outdated. Lots of people don't talk to siblings but would be devastated by the loss of a friend.

Compassionate leave is the answer, if this is not available then sick.

It would be annual leave or unpaid leave where I work. Although it’s possible the great-aunt may have been more of a parent to the employee than their actual parents, the rules gave to be fair for everyone. My grandparents were both from very large families (9 and 12 siblings). So I have 21 great aunts/uncles plus their spouses.

Being upset is not the same as being sick.

Compassionate leave 100% it’s based on the closeness of relationship not how close in terms of family tree / blood lines.

Some people can work after a close bereavement and others can not, if someone is very emotional / short tempered / tired / forgetful after someone they care about has passed away they are more likely to upset their colleagues or make errors even if they are a superstar employee. If doesn’t make sense on human or business level to not give one leave. if they think they need time off then I’d grant it up to 3 days, then annual leave or sick leave if signed off. Unpaid leave for day 4+ if no more annual leave remaining.

abuse of any employers compassionate leave policy can easily be prevented by tracking how much compassionate leave has been taken by people and declining when hits an upper level in a 12 month period. Treating people like human beings is better for overall job satisfaction, engagement and motivation which is better for an employer in long run as improves productivity and retention

My cousin died unexpectedly at 45. He was like a brother to me (we lived together, as siblings, as children). I did not get compassionate leave but took one week's unpaid leave. Apparently he wasn't a (close enough family member 🤔). A colleague of mine lost his brother. They were estranged and he didn't even go to the funeral...He had a week's compassionate leave, flowers, the lot.

I am a senior manager now and I always grant compassionate leave. In my 15 years of line management, not one colleague has taken advantage. Not one. If it's my call, I always go for compassion.

@Aprilx

Being upset is not the same as being sick

i think that’s debatable, distress at the loss of a loved one equates to temporary mental health issues for which a dr would give a sick note.

regardless, if your employer is so dreadful that they won’t allow you a day off for MILs funeral or more than three days for the death of your child you should use every option open to you to take what you need.

I’m genuinely horrified at the race to the bottom on this thread with the “I don’t get it, so no one should”; putting people on menial duties as punishment for attending a funeral and the utter lack of compassion.

I’ve worked in a variety of settings and I have never had to take annual leave for a drs appointment; take sick days to attend a funeral; or unpaid leave to attend a school assembly. You work hard, I’m treated like an adult and make up the time where I can.

there are so many jobs out there where you get treated like a human being and with respect.

What is puzzling me about all these rigid policies around leave and definition of leave type is this: from the employer’s perspective the worst case of giving compassionate leave is that the employee is not at work for a few days and a week or so’s salary is paid without the hours being worked.

We’re talking a week off on average, in some cases a single day for a funeral. It is a very very minor financial hit- a tiny amount of money in the context of the overall salary and the employee will undoubtedly have some days at work when they are more productive than others even when at work. It all balances out. Splitting a salary down into individual days’ pay that have to be earned is a really miserable and over-detailed way to go about things. I don’t buy the floodgates argument because the manager can assess each case in a case by case basis and piss takers are easy to identify. And you earn huge amounts of loyalty and goodwill by treating someone with trust and compassion.

HR people, what am I missing?

I know that there is inconvenience and potentially the cost of arranging cover, but surely that’s going to happen anyway unless you are so strict as to not even allow them to use short notice annual leave and actually physically force them to come in, and that would be utterly inhumane and probably mean they just take sick anyway.

Sickness if to distressed to work, immediate family only for compassionate leave

This is not easy for smaller companies - if you only have 5 employees, that's a fifth of your workforce (and possibly your salary bill). Do you work for a large employer yourself, Terra? It will seem like a drop in the ocean if you work for somewhere like the NHS but not in a smaller organisation.

Fraudulant compassionate leave is usually discovered when the culprit requests time off for the same relative IME. It does happen, unfortunately, and is a case of a minority affecting what happens for the majority.

I was my talking about the person’s salary for a few days being small in relation to the employer’s overall salary bill. I mean that a couple of weeks’ pay is small compared to the whole year’s salary. Does any employer really assess whether they are getting their full “money’s worth” out of an individual within a margin that is affected by a few unproductive days here and there? To the extent that they want the employee to compensate them by sacrificing salary?

An organisation with only 5 employees will know them personally and it is likely that senior management will take the decision; the risk of fraud or piss taking is going to be pretty low.

*wasn’t talking

But it isn't as clear cut as that, family circumstances are so diverse that to have such a clear cut definition seems harsh.

Strict rules work fine in some circumstances, bereavement isn't one of them.

They can't record it as sick leave as she isn't sick.

It's compassionate leave, discretionary. And any decent manager would grant it.