To wonder whether this qualifies for compassionate leave?

[nhspolicy]

Situation as follows:

NHS employee, bereaved unexpectedly - think extended family member like Great Aunt/Uncle. Person was very close to the deceased person and was very distressed by the loss. 3 days absence from work following the news.

Which is the fairest option of these for the employee's manager to choose in respect of the above?

• compassionate/ special leave
• sick leave
• annual leave
• unpaid leave

Thanks.

I went back to to work the day after my mother died but I don't think my reactions should be the same as everyone else's. The OP says this person was very close to the deceased.

Sorry, I've quoted the wrong person there. Apologies.

That's who I meant to quote.

I would suggest that you communicate with the employee aka:

I'm very sorry to hear of your families' loss and hope you are doing as well as possible, in the circumstances. Unfortunately the company policy for compassionate leave stipulates "x days off for y family member". As such, I'm afraid this absence does not meet the requirements for compassionate leave. Which of the following options would you prefer me to record this time off as: sick leave, annual leave or unpaid leave? I will require your decision by Friday 4.30pm or I will have to record this as [insert manager preference].

I understand its a bad time to send emails but it's extended family (still sad but its not her mum etc) and the company will likely have a policy that needs to be followed. Offering the employee a choice is fair; incase they have alot of sick days recorded already or plans for their leave. By assigning a time you need to know by, you don't allow it to run on for too long. Keeps it professional and simple.

Strict familial relationship descriptions don't always adequately describe the relationship. Not everyone has mum, dad, brother, sister, four grandparents, etc. For some people, great aunt might have helped raise them.

Doesn’t it (usually) depend on the policy?

I’m NHS staff and our special leave policy, which includes bereavements, defines the relationships, so eg up to 5 days for a parent, inc funeral, but one day (to attend the funeral) for a parent-in-law

I say usually, because there may be ‘managers discretion’

Most places have a published policy and management discretion. I have given and received both.
If the company sticks to their policy, then I would self cert for 5 days and then consider if I was fit to return to work. If not, I would get a fit note.

Self certification for first week. Fit note from doctors after that. You have to draw the line somewhere.

This is exactly the case with this employee.

Compassionate leave has rules, doesn't it- regardless of what I personally think of that, my understanding is cl passionate leave is for immediate family memeber, not extended, so would go down as sick leave.

in this case this case I would say, if the policy allows ‘manager discretion’, then this should be applied and the manager should consider compassionate/bereavement leave

If it's a great aunt who was actually more like a parent, then compassionate leave - which in the NHS isn't much.

Otherwise nothing.

Depressingly I've heard NHS HR arguing compassionate leave wasn't necessary for the death of a parent as 'they were very old so it was expected and not so upsetting'

Compassionate leave. No debate imo.

3 days is nothing. As a manager I always put myself in the position of the employee when making decisions like this. You can tell when someone is trying it on and when someone is genuine.

If a genuinely close relative (to them, not through titles) i'd tell them not to worry about it its put through as Compassionate leave and to make sure they're aware of the entilement left and that if they feel they need more time to speak to their GP. If you're grieveing and dealing with all the emotions and hassle of death of someone you cared about, the last thing you want or need to do is be worrying about unpaid leave or annual leave or whatever.

Unfortunately not all NHS managers are like this.

If they were too upset to work then they were sick, so sick leave.

It is difficult, as you could be closer to a great aunt or uncle than a grandparent, particularly if your grandparent had died when you were young or wasn't otherwise around. Likewise a grandparent or aunt or uncle could be like a parent. There needs to be general guidelines for compassionate leave, then at manager's discretion if, say, the relative was like a parent to a person.

Meanwhile, when my dad died suddenly, my manager in the NHS quietly cancelled the day of annual leave which I was due to take the day after my dad died, and replaced it with compassionate leave. I assume he thought it was somehow wrong for my to use a day of annual leave for a day when I was in the first few hours of shock and grief. I was told to only come back to work when I felt able and ready to. Not all NHS organisations and managers are the same.

In the OP's case I'd say it depends on the policy but either a day of compassionate plus 2 days of sick leave, or 3 days of sick leave would be seem appropriate. The person is sick (stressed /anxious /grieving etc) due to bereavement. It's perfectly legitimate to be off sick as a result of being bereaved. For the funeral either annual leave or unpaid leave perhaps, as its no longer the immediate aftermath of the death?

I’ve had very supportive managers in the past who if it was a one off would suggest either compassionate or sick leave. If it was a stricter policy I’d probably allow one day compassionate and then suggest annual leave or unpaid.

I'm a ward manager and would try to give compassionate leave. The policy states this applies only to spouse, parent or child but I'm aware that my staff have various dynamics within their individual families and for some an aunt could be a greater loss to them than an estranged parent.
I do this under 'manager's discretion' clause.
I'm lucky my team is small enough that I know them all very well and know their personal circumstances etc

Annual or unpaid in all the private sector jobs I have worked in. They aren’t sick and compassionate for an extended family member is a bit of a stretch.

However , the NHS operates in it’s own bubble so I guess it could be anything.

At mine compassionate is immediate family but managers duscression if its someone wider you were very close to e.g you might have been brought up by your great aunt or have been her main carer for the past few years.

Do agree with others that it needs to be contained but ensure annual or unpaid leave is available.

We would only get bereavement leave for direct family member.

I'm pretty sure that the length of Bereavement Leave will be written down in Policy so that everyone is treated the same. It certainly was when I worked in the Civil Service and I would expect NHS staff policies will be similar. A Great Aunt/Uncle would not be classed as a 'Close Relative'. There was some leeway, if I remember correctly, if they were very close to the deceased person but it wasn't by much - a couple of days maybe?

If it is laid down policy, she will get whatever Bereavement days she is allowed if any - the three days thing sounds like it is leave for a funeral?

If he/she isn't able to cope, then he/she would need to speak to their GP and get a certificate for sick leave.

And to the poster who queried whether someone suffering from a bereavement is actually sick - Mental health issues ( including mental anguish) also constitute as being 'sick'. A certificate to qualify for sick pay is actually a GP statement that you are not 'fit for work' for whatever reason

Annual or unpaid. Think how many people would fall into extended family.

Well the question is what is the fairest, which is different to what actually happens in reality.
The fairest would be compassionate leave as the people you're close to aren't necessarily the closest blood relations are they.
But what happens in reality is a different thing

What's the policy. Probably 1 paid and some more unpaid if needed something like that?

Don't do sick unless sick as that could lead to disaplinary