AIBU to not give DH a medal for this shop?

[DinnerThyme]

I love DH more than anyone else on this planet and he's my absolute best friend. He's kind, he's smart, he's interesting, he's handsome, he's witty, he's fun. But, he is completely fucking incompetent and it drives me insane. I have to do everything. Granted, he works very hard, when being micromanaged to the nth degree and would work 24/7 if asked - but, unless given explicitly clear instructions, everything he does just falls apart. It's 10x more work for both us so I don't think it's even "strategic incompetence".

A few months ago, it all came to a head. I expressed how unbelievably miserable it was making me to always have to be the only real adult in the relationship, that his incompetence is hurting me and that he's a grown adult who should be able to cope with all of these things. He fully accepted the problem and the responsibility to fix it. Since then, to my mind, things have not improved enough. To his mind, he has improved and is trying.

He outlined his examples:

• "Offering to help with [an aspect of my job]" - (Essentially, I give a lot of presentations and it's useful to run through those with someone before I give them. For years, when I ask DH, he'll say yes and then try to avoid it meaning that I waste huge amounts of time waiting for him (like "oh, sure, I'll just go to the bathroom and then we'll run through it" - but then he goes off and does something else and doesn't come back so I spent ages waiting for him for no reason). He says that he's massively improved on that - but, to my memory, he's not helped me one single time since the big argument - he's just promised to, which is no change from before. I've said it's fine to say no but he won't, he'll just lead me on. It's worth noting that he has expertise in an area which is why it's useful to have his input and I have expertise in an area of his work and frequently help him out with his.
• "Keeping the house tidy" - We've had to cancel his family coming over twice since the big argument because the house was too messy and I refused to tidy the whole house by myself for his guests. Any tidying he's done has been under explicit instructions from me (literally to the point of "there's some rubbish, put that in the bin", "that's DS's shoe, put that in the cupboard"). When left to tidy by himself, I'll return an hour later and it's literally not tidier - he'll have moved one pile of crap to one place and put another pile of crap where it was. The only exception to this is the dishwasher, which DH insists on doing every single night before bed, regardless of how much actually needs to go into it. To my memory, he's not done any tidying at all without being explicitly asked other than the dishwasher. In fairness to him, he does also do laundry and has some kind of "system" that I can't fathom for where he puts different baskets depending on whether they're clean/dirty/wet/dry and then split by person...I don't understand his system so I don't touch it and leave him to it. It apparently works for him (except on the frequent occasions that he can't find anything, when he's not sure if a basket is clean or dirty and when wet baskets get forgotten about and need rewashing) so I don't micromanage that and just leave him to his chaos "system". He has not swept, hoovered, wiped, mopped, dusted...
• "Taken charge of food deliveries...I did the last one without any support" - He's done two. The first one I sat with him, with a list and told him exactly what to put in the basket, in exact quantities. The second one, I told him some things that were needed (shampoo, conditioner, nappies etc) but left him to it. He bought the non-food items I asked for but, in terms of just food, he bought: sausage rolls, juice, pasta frozen ready meal, smoked salmon, cream cheese, cheddar, apples, crisps, squeezy fruit pouches, bear strawberry yoyos, frozen pizza, curly fries, avocados, milk, bread, bananas. This is to sustain a family of four, for a week. Keep in mind, I can't have dairy so I'm not able to eat the sausage rolls, the pasta ready meal, the cream cheese, the cheddar, the frozen pizzas or the milk. I'm baffled as to how he believes that this is a sign he's done something good. I feel like it's what a 10yo would buy.
• "Dealing with DS and DD issues in the morning (like nappies and feeding) and not just fucking off" - ok, yeah, if one of the DCs need a nappy change or DD is crying for milk and I'm not there then he will now change/feed them instead of waiting for me to come back and sort it out. I'm not sure why that's such a huge win though.

AIBU to expect more "progress" than this in three months? Granted, he has made progress, he did do a Tesco delivery by himself and he does change nappies/feed the baby if it happens right in front of him and he does load and put on the dishwasher. Am I being too harsh?

YABU - He's made some progress so that shows he is putting in effort, stick at it and he'll get there.
YANBU - He's made such slow progress that he's clearly not putting in any effort, cut your losses, he won't get there.

Lots of sympathy for you. Have struggled with the same things for ...eh 15 years. Lots of weaponised incompetence that I'm actually calling him out on every time. So you're probably in it for the long haul if you can stand it. Also agree with Gerbils on a lot of counts.
I do see some improvement on my end applying the same tactics. Over the years I've really managed to shift full responsibility for some of the main household tasks to him.

• cooking: I agree that it is far easier to do the shopping if you're the one doing the cooking/meal prep. To make this work, can you ask him to cover meals half the time? Then he'll realise what cooking generally requires in terms of shopping. Mine still seems to think potatoes grow in our cupboard and meat magically appears in the fridge. Obviously, all the after-dinner cleaning is on him.
• Laundry: now fully his responsibility. His claims that he doesn't know what needs to be washed at which temperature I have accommodated by using a system with three baskets (coloured 40/white 40/everything 60) and this works. When basket is full he knows to do the laundry/hanging/drying. After 10 years of claims that he doesn't know where everything then goes he's also finally managing to put it back in the right cupboards. It helps that the kids now firmly point out to him how ridiculous it is that he cannot distinguish between under pants for a 13 year old from boxers of the 4 year old.
• Garbage: all on him.
• Cleaning: I hate cleaning too so we compromised and hired a cleaner once a week. He deals with her. As he hates spending money he has an interest in ensuring that the house is moderately organised before she comes.

We've come a long way and still have weekly arguments about household jobs. At least he knows now for most what is involved.

But you're taking this to mean that because I don't agree with you that you are wrong. It's just my opinion. Like, in your opinion, I imagine, you don't agree with mine. Which is fine. I'm didn't disagree with what you wrote to be funny or to be contradictory pointlessly, I said it because I didn't agree with it!

Also, not sure how else to explain why I disagreed: Demanding, controlling, exhausting.

I always find these threads really surprising and quite depressing. If my DH didn't know how to do something as basic as food shopping or cleaning, he wouldn't be my DH. If you were dating someone and they arrived in manky clothes because they didn't do their washing or saying they're starving because they didn't know how to shop/cook, most people would end it there. Why would you put up with this in a marriage?!

He is a fucking teacher!!!

Can you all drop the 'maybe he has ADHD' shite now? The man performs perfectly well at a responsible level.

The man is absolutely taking the piss out of OP.

Oh bless. Another loving, kind and otherwise perfect man who works very hard at what im
guessing is a very important job but just simply, for the life of him, can’t work out how to buy enough food to sustain his family for a week or work out that “making the beds” means making all the beds, not just one.

@DinnerThyme you are right to be pissed off because this absolutely is nuclear grade weaponised incompetence. Yes, it initially creates way more work for both of you but he knows (either consciously or subconsciously) that you will eventually give up. Send him a link to She Divorced Because I Left Dishes By the Sink. matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/

“Every time she’d walk into the kitchen and find a drinking glass by the sink, she moved incrementally closer to moving out and ending our marriage. I just didn’t know it yet. But even if I had, I fear I wouldn’t have worked as hard to change my behavior as I would have stubbornly tried to get her to see things my way.”

Oh, reading that back it comes across as harsh and I didn't mean it to be ^^ I meant your POST sounded like that, not you yourself OP.

Do explore the ADHD suggestion. My almost 50 year old DH has just been diagnosed and we're hoping that the drugs do work!

Yeah if he's a teacher, it's strategic incompetence imo

It's interesting to me how many women who legitimately have neurodiverse conditions and executive functioning issues still manage to parent. And yet thats the first thing people jump on when men suck.

Why do he have to listen to you? Just do the presentation to yourself. 🙄

OP, do you work full time? A full time teacher is quite a demanding job, way beyond the average 9-5. That doesn't get him off the hook, but it should be taken into account. As should your work commitments too. While he 'should' be able to do these jobs properly without prompting, in the real world it isn't always obvious and easy for someone who rightly or wrongly hasn't done certain jobs in the past.

If I were you i'd try to work out a fair division of jobs taking into account each of your work and childcare schedules and demands. Then make those jobs allocated to him his responsibility. Initially, he might not do them to your standard, but with practise and trial and error, he'll complete his allocation to a better standard.

But I'd ease off on the work presentation stuff to start with. Give him chance to adjust.

If he's a teacher, there's absolutely no way he is going on like this at work because it wouldn't be tolerated at all.
This would suggest he's just being lazy.
There is absolutely no reason why he can't tidy up, or do a food shop, or any other basic task. He's deliberately fucking it up so that you'll give up and just do the things himself.
The dishwasher thing is very telling. Does he do the bins too? Even the most lazy, incompetent men on Mumsnet seem to be able to do the dishwasher and the bins. And why do they do those? Because those two things are the most piss easy chores of all and then they can claim they are doing their share.

Sounds like you don't want to LTB so need a plan.

He sounds like a kid more that being purposefully incompetent so you can't expect him to suddenly act like an adult when he's never been taught to (although obviously he bloody well should be able to engage his brain and figure it out).

There a book about how to do this, called Fair Play or something similar. I haven't actually read it just the synopsis but I liked their framework

It's all about agreeing everything.

Agree what needs to be done, covering everything ever as far as practical. This means you're on the same page, he might not realise the more hidden things or infrequent things you do.

Agree on frequency. If its 'when it needs doing' then agree the signs that tell you it needs doing eg wash car when you can no longer read the numberplate.

Agree on what 'doing it' looks like. Is cleaning the bathroom a spray and wipe of toilet/basin/bath or is it a bucket of water and cloth clean of everything or does it include polishing taps and removing water marks? Is laundry 'done' when dry and in a crate or when ironed and put away?

Agree who does what or how you'll alternate.

Agree on how you'll communicate if one of you falls short. Can you remind him he's forgotten the bins without being called 'a nag'?

My DH is pretty good but doing the above made me realise our biggest issue was what 'doing it' looked like. Also I have higher standards than him but agree his standards are acceptable so if I need shiny taps I do it myself.

Sorry for long post, maybe it's obvious but I found it really useful.

You cancelled HIS family coming to visit because he hadn’t tidied the house?

He’s a teacher, he performs fine from what I know. Never had any kind of disciplinary or progress issues or anything like that.

Yeah, strategic incompetence - or at home he just does not care.

Well, based on your update OP, I'd consider this to be strategic incompetence and honestly, I'd have lost all respect for him. I mean, I can understand genuinely not seeing that the surfaces need to be wiped. What I Can't understand is why, once you point it out, he doesn't LEARN that it does need to be done. As for the bedding... it's ridiculous.

I’m a teacher who works full time and I manage to do household tasks competently though. If he is a capable teacher then he should be more than capable of a simple food shop, tidy up or washing some clothes. I agree that’s it’s strategic incompetence and very unlikely to be ADHD given his profession and the lack of issues there.

It's a cut above carpet love.

Offering to help with [an aspect of my job]" - (Essentially, I give a lot of presentations and it's useful to run through those with someone before I give them.. Ok, this is you not being an adult. Do your day job. Don’t be asking him to do your job for you.

Taken charge of food deliveries...I did the last one without any support" FFS do you not do a family menu together with who is cooking what? And then one of you draws up a list based on that? I think YABU to be like “go forth and buy food for a week” and zero input other than don’t forget shampoo and nappies. You both sound horribly disorganised tbh. And if the physical shopping is so much trouble, just do click and collect or order for delivery.

Dealing with DS and DD issues in the morning he does this
Laundry he does all the laundry which is daily with DC
Dishes & dishwasher he does all this

Tidying sounds like chaos again and you both being disorganised. Can you not do a rota? He seems quite capable when there is a set area of responsibility. Can you not say DH you do kitchen and hoovering, I will do rest?

By way of an example, with giving jobs, say he has to change bedding on a Monday.

Who changes bedding on a work day? Surely this is a weekend task?

This is relevant to many couples

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

It doesn't have to be this way.

Why is there a thread like this every day? How do so many low quality males end up luring in a woman? So depressing.
The usual trotted out cliches of ‘doesn’t see’ tasks because he has a penis, ‘train him’ 🤢 and take on yet another task of writing out little lists and begging him to function on a basic level. Just to keep a man.

Fuck that. You get one life.

I'm absolutely lolling here about a man who probably finds it so hard to plan for 21 meals a week because he doesn't regularly do it.

Regularly eats it though I'm sure. Pretty sure if he didn't have to think about anyone but himself he'd be able to do it.

I'm sure @Onnabugeisha would think we're disorganised as a household because we're not especially tidy and don't meal plan. I don't think that renders either one of us blind or stupid; we can both see shoes in the middle of the landing need putting away, trash on the table needs to go in the bin, and no crisps in the place we normally keep them means we need to buy more.

Why is it only considered hard work or difficult to manage when it's a man being asked to do those things? Women don't do them or struggle and the discussion is very very different.

He likes a system. Could he have Add?

The reason I would suspect its deliberate is that he doesnt appear to suffer from this incompetence at work does he? How on earth can he not even figure out how to put shopping away and yet he manages to hold down a stressful job? If this was about him being ND then there would be elements of it cropping up in other scenarios too. Sure, he might have learnt how to do his job without it appearing obvious but then how can he learn to do that but not simpler tasks?

If this was something affecting his life on a global level then there would definitely have been signs of that happening elsewhere but there isnt. He sounds lazy to be honest and almost like he feels he works hard so therefore there is a resentment there that he has to do household tasks on top.

I'd be furious if I was you.