AIBU to think this is unacceptable of the school

[anerki101]

My DS has suspected ASC. We have been waiting ages for a meeting with the school to discuss - that's another thread!

But anyway, DS is 4. Started school in Septemeber. He is 100% toilet trained nothing day and night. Never has accidents. Accept at school. If he doesn't do his daily poo at home after school, then he poos his pants at school. Its becoming an almost daily occurance. This started at the beginning of December. In all that time the staff have only noticed ONCE that he has had an accident and changed him.

Today I found out DS had done a poo in his pants between 12 and 1. I picked him up at 4:15. He'd been sitting in his own poo for three to four hours.

AIBU to think this is totally unacceptable?

The school are aware of these accidents. I have had several discussions with his teacher about preventing, etc. Nothing has worked so far but the biggest issue is that they aren't noticing he's had an accident and leaving him to sit in it all day.

How do you know it was between that time you specified?

how would teacher know unless he told the teacher - did he?

how would a teacher know that one child (out of up to 30) has poo'd his pants?)

You cherry picked the part of the quote that fitted your narrative but when you read the section as a whole it explicitly states 2 members of staff aren’t legally required and shouldn’t be used unless needed for the child’s needs.

I was responding to GCMM’s post about the problem being there are only 2 members of staff in the classroom in that school and they can’t both leave as that isn’t a problem - “schools should not refuse to clean a child if only one member of staff is available to leave the classroom.”

Yes safeguarding policies have been developed for good reasons, including to prevent the neglect of the child.

My narrative is keeping children and staff safe in school.

Two staff is essential to safeguard everyone but is problematic in terms of staffing.

Of course we would find two staff. We would put two classes together. We would not do intervention that day, we would not eat lunch. That's what school staff do to ensure children are safe and comfortable.

That's what school staff do to ensure children are safe and comfortable.

Sadly too many schools don’t, they refuse to change the child or call the parents. Neither of which are acceptable. If you find 2 members of staff fine, but that’s different to not changing the child due to there not being 2 members of staff which the school incorrectly believe are essential. It also goes against the guidance of not having 2 present unless needed for the child’s needs.

Having two members of staff is essential.

If a school can't safeguard both children and staff by providing two to support the child then sending them home to get cleaned up is the best approach to ensure the safety of everyone involved.

It's clearly not ideal but the alternatives of a class of children left alone, a child or staff member open to abuse, a child sitting wet/dirty and uncomfortable then that's what I would do.

We can't afford paper at my school. Funding is appalling. This is what it has come to.

Telling staff they should disregard safeguarding policies devised to keep everyone safe is not the answer.

Having two members of staff is essential.

No it isn’t. To quote ERIC again: “So not only is there no need for two members of staff to be present, it is in fact discouraged unless the child needs two members of staff.”

Calling a parent and sending a pupil home is unacceptable and may well be classed as disability discrimination depending on individual circumstances. It is also “tantamount to abuse to force/allow a child to sit in wet or soiled underwear until their parent or guardian can come in to change them” according to ERIC.

I couldn't care less about ERIC, I care about keeping my staff and children safe.

Are you currently working in a primary school?

Good luck defending unlawful and discriminatory behaviour when a parent stands up to your school.

No I don’t currently work in a primary school. I do however have DC with SEN and have supported many other parents to put an end to their school’s unlawful behaviour around toileting/changing.

Statutory guidance for supporting pupils with medical conditions also states it is unacceptable practice to “require parents, or otherwise make them feel obliged, to attend school to administer medication or provide medical support to their child, including with toileting issues.“

Sending a child home is a last resort if staffing cannot safely be provided.

I'm honestly open mouthed that you think sending a child home is worse than not safeguarding children and staff against abuse.

If a parent complained about me sending a child home in this situation I would hold my head high knowing that I had put the safety needs of all the children and staff first.

Good night.

Sending a child home is a last resort if staffing cannot safely be provided.

Clearly it’s not as in your opinion 2 staff members being present are essential, despite evidence demonstrating to the contrary. Sending a child home doesn’t put the safety of that child first. Holding your head up high wouldn’t help you defend the disability discrimination claim.

This was my boy in reception class.
I trained his bowel to poo before school. He still does a poo before school now and he's much bigger. Just encourage him to try every morning. Increase his fibre in his breakfast and let him have a few days of leisurely toilet time (maybe an iPad with a cartoon in the bathroom?) to get used to that being his poo time.

Good luck convincing a Judge that safeguarding standards should be abandoned. We can play this game all evening. The problem isn’t with staff. If children with an identified need require support then they need specialised paid assistance. Take the funding deficit up with the government. Stop asking workers to put themselves at risk to facilitate shortfalls in funding.

This is such a sensible solution. It might not work for the OP’s child but it’s really good advice

Convincing a Judge the school is acting unlawful is t that difficult. I have managed it before. If the school need more funding they should approach the LA, not act unlawfully.

But by your argument on this thread you want to persuade a Judge that staff at schools should abandon the safeguarding policies that are in place. As I have said several times they exist for benefit of the staff and the student. You are saying you want staff to HAVE to deal with intimate personal care on a 1:1 basis where they are not employed as a 1:1 assistant for special needs children. Have you been successful in Court on that argument?

Any disability discrimination claim would be about proving a school is acting unlawfully. Yes I have supported more than 1 parent in a successful disability discrimination claim where part of the school’s unlawful behaviour was the school failing to act lawfully in their dealing with toileting/changing by asking parents to come in/sending pupils home/outright refusing to change DC because they claim not to have the staff to deal with it when that isn’t lawful.

I'm glad it did. A sensible and well informed answer with great suggestions. I hope the multiple postings will drown out the silly replies from people who know nothing about SEN\ Autism and what a school can / can not do but think they should shout their opinions anyway.

I’m not going to keep discussing this with you. However you are talking about discrimination claims against education authorities. I have merely pointed out that employees have rights too. They are dealt with under two completely different areas of law. Staff are entitled to protection under the law as well

However you are talking about discrimination claims against education authorities.

No, I’m not. I’m talking about disability discrimination cases against schools.

Nowhere have I said staff aren’t entitled to be protected, I have instead pointed out that it is unlawful to leave a child unchanged/call parents because schools have incorrectly deemed 2 members of staff are needed.

I’m glad you’re not going to keep discussing it because you clearly know very little about SEND law.

Education authorities are responsible for the oversight of schools and will be including in any proceedings against a school. I’ve not once said children should be left unchanged or that parents should be called. Goodnight

LAs may be named in proceedings, but proceedings can be against specific individual schools as well.

And yet you continuously excuse unlawful behaviour.

You’d be badly advise to only issue against the school.
Please refrain from reckless accusations. I’ve said nothing of the sort. You should retract your last statement.

It depends on the circumstances, proceedings can be against a specific school/school body. For example, F-T v The Governors of Hampton Dene Primary School [2016] UKUT 0468 (AAC). It is upper tier rather than FtT but it is a disability discrimination case against a school rather than LA. The content of the case isn’t relevant to the thread, but it’s the first case to hand which proves a case can be against a school.

It you look at the upper tier disability discrimination cases online (FtT aren’t listed online) you will see it’s not the only one against specific schools. Some have other interested parties named in proceedings as well.

No, I won’t retract it. Throughout this thread you have posted the school shouldn’t have to change the pupil, the OP should collect her child at lunchtime and the school can only change pupils when there’s 2 staff members present.