AIBU to think this is unacceptable of the school

[anerki101]

My DS has suspected ASC. We have been waiting ages for a meeting with the school to discuss - that's another thread!

But anyway, DS is 4. Started school in Septemeber. He is 100% toilet trained nothing day and night. Never has accidents. Accept at school. If he doesn't do his daily poo at home after school, then he poos his pants at school. Its becoming an almost daily occurance. This started at the beginning of December. In all that time the staff have only noticed ONCE that he has had an accident and changed him.

Today I found out DS had done a poo in his pants between 12 and 1. I picked him up at 4:15. He'd been sitting in his own poo for three to four hours.

AIBU to think this is totally unacceptable?

The school are aware of these accidents. I have had several discussions with his teacher about preventing, etc. Nothing has worked so far but the biggest issue is that they aren't noticing he's had an accident and leaving him to sit in it all day.

Over just checked the intimate care policy of the (mainstream) school my child with continence issues will end up in.

They will change her and clean her up when necessary. It's even in their policy how they will deal with colostomy bags and catheters.

Obviously policy and reality can be different, but it's clear to me that the school need to sit down with the OP and come up with a plan. Preferably one that school can deal with independently rather than the poor lad having to leave the premises every day, and the OPs day bring completely tied.

I'm bemused about these schools that are apparently perfectly happy for parents to wander in at random times and check if their child needs cleaning, and indeed all these parents who don't have to work or look after other children who have the time to do it.

It's not necessarily the teacher's job, but it is a TA's job and it's very unusual for reception classes not to have a TA. If they don't and as a result are not meeting the needs of children in the class, the school should be looking at applying for EHCPs.

And yet there are teachers and TAs on here who have explained that it is a routine part of their jobs.

anerki101 · Yesterday 23:29
Look, I didn't even realise taking him home at lunch time could be an option until this thread. Naive of me, perhaps. Now it's been suggested, I will 100% do this“

Good, worthwhile thread then.

Lots of parents don’t. I didn’t feel our youngest was ready for full time school so told them that I would collect them at lunchtime for the first term. So many people don’t realise that this is an option (for under 5s).

Just a thought, could he be having accidents on the playground at lunchtime, when it's harder to find a teacher to ask to go to the toilet/get to the toilet? My son wet himself twice in reception and I suspect it was due to this. Thankfully his teacher was lovely and helped him change into his PE kit both times, because having empathy for children and pastoral care is also part of working with four year olds.

I replied to loads of your posts. I pointed out on the thread that, as you have demonstrated again here, you just don't seem to understand your school's duties under the Equality Act and in relation to SEN. Quite seriously, I would suggest that you have a good read of the IPSEA website to educate yourself.

The job of a teacher is certainly to teach, including meeting the needs of children with SEN. That means that, if they are unable to meet those needs, they should be signposting for an EHCP application and should be supporting it. Teaching includes toilet training, and support in school includes help with incontinence. Other teachers and TAs on here understand that, it's a real shame that you don't.

Ah, but I do. So indeed do other posters on this thread. Stop trying to twist the facts.

My little one had lots of accidents on starting school. I talked to the teachers and we agreed that I would take her into the school toilet at the start of the day and that her teacher or TA would remind her twice during the day and send a buddy with her. A couple of months down the line and far so good, it seems to have just been nerves and the 'fear' of the school toilet. Good luck, hope you find something that works.

Working with the SENCO?

I have experience of working in a primary school as a TA and having to deal with children soiling themselves. Believe me when I say it’s horrible for the child and staff. It’s routine now because so many children are either inadequately toilet trained for school and there are more children with additional needs in mainstream education. It absolutely should not be routine in an educational environment. Children are entitled to dignity apart from anything else.

None of that is an excuse for schools for not complying with the law. I know it's a shitty, underfunded system, but that means schools and local authorities should be making a hell of a fuss with the government, and should be using it for all they are worth to apply for EHCPs whenever the criteria are met. It doesn't mean disabled children should get thrown to the wolves.

As a matter of interest, @Autumndays123: given that children are the school's responsibility during the school day, what would your suggested remedy be if OP were unable to come in during the day to help?

You haven't come up with a solution that doesn't depend on breaching the Equality Act one way or another. OP's child is entitled to start school at the same time as his peers, and in fact there is no reason to believe that keeping him out a year is going to resolve this given that he is fully toilet trained and the problem lies with the school toilets. So what happens if he goes back next year and the problem happens again? Is he supposed to go through life without any education at all?

The school isn't entitled to demand that parents come in to do their jobs for them; it is a massive bonus that OP is willing to, but schools really should be capable of dealing with this without that. This school is doing nothing to facilitate OP's help by phoning her when she is needed. Schools can't just let random parents come into school and haul their children out at odd times of the day, so you blaming OP for not taking matters into her own hands falls very wide of the mark.

What is really needed is a discussion with the SENCO, and that is what no-one is bothering to arrange.

Well, there is SENDIAS, though I know that is of variable quality. Schools are also free to refer parents to charities like SOS SEN, IPSEA, NAS etc who offer a lot of support and help.

Schools have a statutory duty to use their best endeavours to meet the needs of their pupils. That includes covering all aspects of education which, as the SEND Code of Practice makes clear, is not limited to cognition and learning - it includes meeting communication, social, emotional and mental health needs, and sensory and physical needs. That certainly means doing what is necessary to provide the best possible conditions and environment. For example, if a child is sensitive to noise the EHCP may require a quiet environment, sensory breaks, and a quiet space the child can retreat to. If the child has tactile sensitivity, it may mean allowing uniform concessions so that they are not uncomfortable. And if the child is incontinent, it certainly means the school needs provision in place for cleaning and nappy/clothes changing.

If you haven't understood that to be the case and therefore haven't been supporting EHCP applications when the school is unable to meet those needs within its normal resources, I would suggest you start now.

Hmmm but it doesn’t seem to be benefiting the child to start school now. He is reluctant to go and is now soiling himself very regularly. Regardless of the child’s entitlement it doesn’t seem to be working for him.

My ds has asd and wasn't even out of nappies until he was 5 and we never had a problem with school changing him.

He's 9 now and never has accidents but also doesn't use the school toilets, says he just doesn't like to.

The school should be working with you on this. Can you email the second directly?

I've been responding to posts in time order. I haven't ignored one single follow-up of yours unless it is a point I or someone else have already answered.

Oh there are , they are SEN lawyers plus private Ed Psychs etc and the LA’s employ barristers to fight parents to prevent them getting EHCP’s, If you have sharp elbows and deep pockets its there. What average parent can afford £20k for lawyers plus around £10k for Ed Psych etc reports?

@Eyerollcentral Many children are reluctant to go to school and it takes them a long time to settle in. Even the most academic highest flyer might struggle in another aspect of learning. Yes, they can go to the toilet and sit on the carpet like an angel but can they feed themselves, share, manage their emotions and arguably why aren’t they ripping around the class with the others? Why is a 4 year old sitting on the bloody carpet so compliantly? Would I ask those children to come back in another year? No. Just because this element of development is smellier and more inconvenient does not mean it can not be managed. It is the job of all of adults, parents included to do this. Neurodiversity in the classroom and in the wider world is a wonderful thing. You don’t stamp it out of tell it to come back at a more convenient time. I might sound like an airy-fairy EYFS dreamer but I’m happy to own that title.

I agree that more and more children are coming in not having been toilet trained. At our school, we have these conversations with parents during transition and settling in. We advise and signpost them to appropriate agencies, we have difficult conversations about how this may impact learning later on in the year and if need be we work with the Senco to support that child and make adjustments.

Some of these comments from apparent teachers are terrifying, thankfully my teaching relatives assure me that it's not the norm for a child to be so blatantly neglected. This isn't a one off incident, this is a regular occurance so why haven't the school Senco been more pro-active? Something needs to be happening and the school should be working with the OP to help her child.

For those suggesting OP should have got a deferral - have you ever actually tried to get a deferral? They need to be approved and that's only done if it's seen to benefit the child. They don't just hand them out that easily, then there's the fact that her son is toilet trained everywhere other than school, a deferral might not even have helped so he'd be held back a year for nothing.

My child is due to start school I'm September, she is very intelligent and independent but she has huge problems with socialising, will refuse to even look at - let alone - some adults and won't communicate her needs at times. She is also toilet trained but has had accidents before when being babysat (people.she knows) because she didn't talk to express her needs ALL day. She also struggles with noise - even low level noise. She is OK at nursery thankfully but I have no idea how she will be at school which is much bigger and much louder. The lack of compassion and in some cases downright callousness from teachers in this thread are so worrying.

*let alone talk to some adults.

@anerki101 while going in at lunchtime is a good short time answer please do not take this on as a long term habit.

People have already mentioned bringing up the poo issue with the GP and that it's possible they might have a solution.

However I have worked with lots of schools and teachers who do not take responsibility for the SEN child on their roll. They have to work with you to find a solution and it can't be long term that you come in every lunchtime. This is a disability access issue as I've mentioned up thread. They can't just ignore it when it's not an impossible thing to monitor.

Posters getting mad at you for not going in every lunchtime even when you said early on that you would don't seem to understand the responsibility of the school. I'm saying this as an advisory SEN teacher who often has to remind schools of their responsibility.

Parents don't need lawyers. There is plenty of information and support out there, and over 90% of tribunal appeals are won by parents - only a relatively small minority of those are represented by lawyers.

OP, I would suggest you ask your GP for a referral for an ASC assessment. That shouldn't stop you doing it through the school as well, but it won't hurt to have two potential routes in place. In the meantime, you don't have to have a diagnosis to get an EHCP in place.