AIBU to think this is unacceptable of the school

[anerki101]

My DS has suspected ASC. We have been waiting ages for a meeting with the school to discuss - that's another thread!

But anyway, DS is 4. Started school in Septemeber. He is 100% toilet trained nothing day and night. Never has accidents. Accept at school. If he doesn't do his daily poo at home after school, then he poos his pants at school. Its becoming an almost daily occurance. This started at the beginning of December. In all that time the staff have only noticed ONCE that he has had an accident and changed him.

Today I found out DS had done a poo in his pants between 12 and 1. I picked him up at 4:15. He'd been sitting in his own poo for three to four hours.

AIBU to think this is totally unacceptable?

The school are aware of these accidents. I have had several discussions with his teacher about preventing, etc. Nothing has worked so far but the biggest issue is that they aren't noticing he's had an accident and leaving him to sit in it all day.

But obviously there are people that will do it and if they apply for a job where personal care is a requirement than that will be part of their role
I was a dementia care nurse for years ,personal care wssent my favourite part of the job either ,,but it was an essential part of the job which nursing staff and health care assistants had to do

Being a nurse involves a huge amount of personal care though. Being a TA is supposed to involve helping the teacher manage and educate the class, personal care is not supposed to be a major element of their employment.

Well.it will be if they are employed as a child ,s 1:1 as part of their EHCP ,and personal.care is part of their role.

For many DC with SEN part of educating them is personal care.

Of course. But beyond that I simply feel it’s unfair. I don’t know what the solution to that is but a lot of people assume people should just suck it up. It’s not what they signed up for.

I work as an LSA in reception and I do check regularly on the children whose parents have flagged toileting. There have been the odd incident where a child has wet themselves and not disclosed and I not noticed which I feel terrible about. If it was poo I would remind them to go regularly, ask them and have a surreptitious sniff in that part of the classroom. It would not be too much of an ask at all. Not sure why we are getting such a bashing on here!

Please pack spares - all our spare pants supplies went in the first half term and none have been returned. I’m sure it’s the same across all schools!

I think the difficulty is that it's not what potential TAs expect when applying for a job in a mainstream school. In SEN schools it would be expected and applicants would know that.

Quite a few TAs are actually qualified teachers who have decided to step back from that role. To use them to clean up DCs is a waste of their skills. I would propose a specific TA with a role similar to a school nurse, more like that of a carer, to cater for all DCs with those specific needs in the school.

An acquaintance lost her DC's 1 to 1 at Christmas, as she found a job she liked more and paid better. The school has been unable to recruit another. This is not for want of trying, nobody wants the job. The school is very understaffed as it is.

There are times when the DC has to deal with accidents himself because there is literally no one spare to help.

JanusTheFirst it is a naive TA working in reception that doesn’t expect there to be some personal care as part of the job.


An acquaintance lost her DC's 1 to 1 at Christmas, as she found a job she liked more and paid better. The school has been unable to recruit another. This is not for want of trying, nobody wants the job. The school is very understaffed as it is.

Your acquaintance should contact the LA as it is them with ultimate responsibility for ensuring the provision is provided. LAs can fund the 1:1 at a substantially higher rate at whatever level it takes in order to provide the provision. LAs won’t do so unless forced, but parents can force the LA’s hand, via judicial review if necessary (if the EHCP is specified and quantified).

DS3’s 1:1s are funded at a higher rate, and I have supported many other parents both on MN and IRL to force their LA to fund the 1:1 at a higher rate where the school say they can’t recruit and every single time it has resulted in an appropriate appointment. Including one where the 1:1 was funded at the level of teaching main pay scale.

The local authority has an obligation to fund EHCP support. It can do that in part by delegated funding so that the school can use the funding to the best effect possible, e.g. by sharing TAs where possible, using economies of scale etc, but the bottom line is that it has an absolute duty to ensure that provision in EHCPs is delivered because it has been assessed that that is what the child needs in order to access education.

Just having minor ASD issues does not give a legal right to particular support. There is an overall duty on schools to use best endeavours to meet SEN, but when it comes to individualised support it is is necessary to have an EHCP, which no child will get if all they have is "minor ASD issues".

It makes plenty of sense economically to do our best to educate all children. Failure to do so will leave significant numbers unable to be economically independent, so that rather than being net contributors to public funds they will become lifelong claimants. Worst case scenario, they may end up in the justice system which is extremely expensive. The more we can do to minimise that possibility, the better.

Without being crass, shit absolutely stinks. If someone has done a poo in the room, it must be completely noticeable to everyone in that room. If my DS has pooed in his nappy then we all know about it. There’s just no way the staff don’t know, unless they all have covid and can’t smell? Surely other children would also point it out? Of course they shouldn’t leave him sitting in soiled pants for hours, it’s neglect.

Usually it is exactly what they signed up for. It is virtually inevitable that there will be some children with toileting problems in every average sized mainstream primary school, and when they recruit TAs that will be part of the job description. So it won't ever come as a surprise that it is expected.

Actually their job is to educate and support with medical issues. If this wasn't the case many children with physical health issues or learning disabilities simply wouldn't be able to access mainstream school. Although judging by some of the callous and ableist responses on this thread some people would clearly be fine with that.

I work in a school and we have written care plans, which are completed in collaboration with the school nurse or other health professionals, for any children with any toileting/personal care needs. Staff can and do carry out personal care for students who need it, in accordance with their care plans. We don't just throw up our hands and say "we've got other children to deal with, they'll just have to get on with it". These children have rights and they deserve to be treated with dignity. No one I know who actually works in education would think it was acceptable to leave a child sitting in their own excrement for hours every day.

OP, if you have repeatedly asked to meet with the senco and this has not happened then it would be reasonable to contact the Head directly.

"These kids" haven't "suddenly appeared". The specialist provision that would have accommodated them has been decimated over the last decade. I work in a mainstream secondary school and we have students who, 10 years ago would have been in Special Schools, without question. Now there are no special school places available, so we have kids on our roll whose learning levels are comparable with that of Reception age children and need an entirely bespoke curriculum, constant 1:1 supervision and support from multiple agencies. Sadly most of those agencies have had their funding cut to the bone and are massively overstretched. If a child has an EHCP that says they need 1:1 TA, then that TA's salary will be funded through their EHCP, it does not come out of our staffing budget.

You seem to be implying that EHCP's are handed out for no good reason and in the good old days these kids would have had to suck it up. This is nonsense. A huge amount of evidence is needed for the LA to agree to an EHCP, and many applications are turned down.

I have worked as a TA. Was never mentioned to me before I went in to a classroom 🤷‍♀️

My niece is a primary school teacher and the policy in her school is that there must always be 2 members of staff to change an incontinent child. As there are only two staff in each classroom (the teacher and the TA) it's clearly a problem.

The school need to read this as there doesn’t need to be 2 members of staff and unless necessary for the needs of the individual pupil there shouldn’t be 2 present.

TAs are TEACHING assistants, not nursery nurses. It is not their job to clean up shit. When I was a TA/HLTA, we would give them a spare pair of pants and tights or trousers if they wet themselves and a plastic bag to put their wet clothes in. If a child was sick, we would see if there were any spare clothes in lost property and call the caretaker to clean up. We did not do personal care.

It is not the teacher’s or TA’s job to check that your child has had an accident. A trip to the GP is required I think.

Schools devise safeguarding policies for the protection of students and staff.

So many people on this thread just do not seem to comprehend this despite the fact they would not countenance being asked to do anything similar in their own job.

They do, but if you read the link from ERIC you will see the government ‘Guidance for safer working practice for those working with children and young people in education settings' states 2 members of staff aren’t necessary and shouldn’t be used unless the pupil’s needs dictate 2 are need.

This is copied and pasted from the link you pasted...

For safeguarding reasons, staff who help with intimate care should make sure another member of staff is aware they are going to change a child and is in the vicinity and visible or audible ((see page 14 of the 'Guidance for safer working practice for those working with children and young people in education settings', 2015)

Our toilets are behind two closed doors. Two staff are needed to protect staff and children.

If you quote the whole section, rather than cherry pick the part that suits your narrative you will see it specifically states 2 members of staff aren’t legally required and 2 members of staff shouldn’t be present unless the care needs of the child require it.

“Do two members of staff need to be present to change my child?

There is no legal requirement for two members of staff to be present, so schools should not refuse to clean a child if only one member of staff is available to leave the classroom.

For safeguarding reasons, staff who help with intimate care should make sure another member of staff is aware they are going to change a child and is in the vicinity and visible or audible ((see page 14 of the 'Guidance for safer working practice for those working with children and young people in education settings', 2015)

It is good practice to ensure that all aspects of continence care in school are documented in advance, for instance using an individual health care plan making sure parental consent is obtained for named carers to meet the child's needs.

The guidance also states that "intimate or personal care procedures should not involve more than one member of staff unless the pupil's care plan specifies the reason for this."

So not only is there no need for two members of staff to be present, it is in fact discouraged unless the child needs two members of staff.”

Yes, but staff are entitled to protection as well. So if they work in twos there is always a witness. Barring religious reasons most women don’t require a chaperone to be examined by a male doctor but to protect both the doctor and the patient it’s good practice to ensure there are two people plus the patient in the room. Safeguarding policies have been devised for a very valid reasons. The government would also say one teacher could teach two classes if they could get away with it.

What? How is protecting my staff and children cherry picking? You can keep saying it until you're blue in the face but keeping children and staff safe in school is the only thing that matters.

Can you honestly not see how an adult providing intimate care to a child alone in a room that is behind two closed doors and not near anyone else is a problem?