AIBU to think this is unacceptable of the school

[anerki101]

My DS has suspected ASC. We have been waiting ages for a meeting with the school to discuss - that's another thread!

But anyway, DS is 4. Started school in Septemeber. He is 100% toilet trained nothing day and night. Never has accidents. Accept at school. If he doesn't do his daily poo at home after school, then he poos his pants at school. Its becoming an almost daily occurance. This started at the beginning of December. In all that time the staff have only noticed ONCE that he has had an accident and changed him.

Today I found out DS had done a poo in his pants between 12 and 1. I picked him up at 4:15. He'd been sitting in his own poo for three to four hours.

AIBU to think this is totally unacceptable?

The school are aware of these accidents. I have had several discussions with his teacher about preventing, etc. Nothing has worked so far but the biggest issue is that they aren't noticing he's had an accident and leaving him to sit in it all day.

Absolutely and a few of us have suggested IPSEA and SOSISEN I was just answering the other poster who feels there should be some kind of bespoke service for Ehcp’s and there is if you can afford to pay for it.

According to the ERIC website if a school.knowingly leaves a child wet and or soiled it could be deemed as neglect .

Maybe you and the teachers could take him to see all the toilets in school as there might be one he'd be happy to use. You could then apply for funding for an extra person to be able to take him there when needed if he can show a card or something. Or if not to help him clean himself. The teacher and TA probably wouldn't be able to get away from the class to do that.

They don't know, because there isn't an intimate care plan in place. They can only ask the boy.

Yes, they're right. And it's something Ofsted would have a field day with if they discovered it.

It’s my job to educate him. It’s not my job to make conditions perfect for him, in order to make that learning possible.

This is one of the most shocking misunderstandings I've seen a teacher say. I hope there's some good SEN inset coming up soon in that person's school.

Little snippet from an NASUWT document.

I don’t know how many people would be interested in early primary years education if the thought of having to deal with toileting needs was made part of the job, which many people on this thread seem to think they should blithely accept. I understand the need for all children to have access to education and completely support that, but I also think that many people seem to think it’s perfectly fine to ask a qualified professional to regularly change children of 4, 5 and older outside special needs education. This was certainly not the case even ten years ago barring the odd accident. I don’t have any answers but I think a key component here - the willingness or staff to do it and the reasonableness of asking them to do it - has been lost.

Well.firstly not all children with disabilities and or SEN will have a diagnosis atv4/5 and secondly this child does have SEN
Do you really think it's acceptable to leave a small child knowingly sat in their.own waste products ??

I agree with this. Also an understanding from the government and parents that supporting children with toileting needs means that more money is needed to provide staff.

Of course I don’t. I don’t think it’s acceptable for staff to have to change children in a mainstream school either, especially if it’s an ongoing problem.

So why are the school not applying for an EHCP and a.1:1 for the child ?

Because presumably the child hasn’t been officially recognised as having a SEN. The OP has said they’ve been trying to arrange an appointment with SENCO, a service highly under pressure because so many children are being referred to them. That’s not any child’s fault but I think it’s unfair to lay everything at the teaching staff’s door as a result of that. And let’s face it 9 times out of 10 it will be a poorly paid TA dealing the actual toileting issue. It’s a complex issue but I’m merely pointing out that people saying it’s fine and staff can deal with it are being really unfair to the staff. It’s not the job they signed up to do.

These issues are normally dealt with on a day to day basis by TAs, and it tends to be made clear in job adverts and job descriptions. Indeed, some TAs are expressly recruited to provide 1:1 support for children known to need personal care. They're hardly going to object if that's the job they agreed to take on.

You don't have to have an official diagnosis for an EHCP.

I think you may be confused about SENCOs. They aren't a service, they are people which every maintained school, academy and free school must have on their staff, normally qualified teachers, who have responsibility for working with teachers to identify children in the school with SEN and provide the right support for them. As such, they should be reasonably freely available to parents like OP.

So where does my child go?

She's nowhere near disabled enough to go to the local special needs school, and they cater primarily for children with severe learning difficulties and complex and profound needs

There is specialist autism provision, but she does not have autism.

But she has a serious health condition and is currently not continent. Educationally she is best placed in mainstream. Socially sure is best placed in mainstream. Her other physical disabilities are easy for the school to manage.

Where exactly does she get an education according to you?

What about children whose only health condition is a bowel abnormality for example?

@Somuchgoo some people not me on here would suggest you have to go in throughout the school day to sort your child's toilet needs. I hope you don't have a job of your own!

Yes TAs who are employed as 1:1s. That’s not the case here or for many other TAs who have to deal with these issues.

@x2boys

Funding in schools is abysmal. We are trying to get support for children with severe learning difficulties or mental health needs. A child with no educational needs and only toileting needs would not be top of the list.

I've got 4 children in my class waiting for an ADHD diagnosis. One has been on the waiting list for nearly 2 years.

No funding = no support

And the ERIC website would point out that a school who asks a parent to go in to change a child could be considered neglectful.

Gosh this is such a disheartening read.

As a former teacher and parent of a current asc reception child, I find it so sad the blame being landed at the foot of the parents.

My son is still not toilet trained. I have tried relentlessly, everything I can think of, followed every bit of advice from OT, paediatrician etc. but we still haven't mastered it. He's waiting on a referral to the continence team. Thankfully my sons ehcp includes a toileting plan.

I'm testament to the fact that you can try every damn thing and still not manage it.

Getting support and a diagnosis is an enormous battle. The notion that you can simply send your child to a specialist school is a myth. We were told my child would never get a place at a specialist school as his needs weren't great enough - despite the fact he isn't toilet trained

I have only ever said every child deserves the right to access education. Where children have medical conditions or special needs they need to be supported. I’ve also said I haven’t got all the answers. I simply said that it’s all well and good saying x, y and z should happen but it’s unfair to ask people who haven’t signed up to that job to expect them to deal with personal care. It’s an unpopular position here I know but I think many people don’t understand what it’s actually like to have 30 small children and at best two pairs of hands to deal with them. Surely people can see that as well as acknowledging that children are entitled to education. You have said your daughter’s needs are easy to manage so I’m not sure why you have taken personal offence at what I have said.

I have a child in a special school with a full EHCP I'm aware of the process ,I realise some LEA,s are better than others in providing support ,but are parents being sign posted to th SENDIASS, the local offer etc?

You're aware of the process as a parent of a child in a special school.

I'm explaining the issues that affect children in a mainstream school from the perspective of a class teacher who is trying to meet the needs of my class of 31 when I am alone in the classroom.

Without support and funding I cannot provide the right support but funding takes forever and so many children are waiting for it.

I agree that parents and staff do need to have a better understand on what happens in Early Years. We have had staff come in thinking it’s all playdough and singing and then leave because they couldn't handle how busy it is. We have parents come in and ruin the beautiful outdoor provision that we have set up for children because they don’t value the learning behind it. As a qualified professional I don’t think it is beneath me to change a soiled child and I have shared this job with my TA. The key thing is that you have SLT support to do your job. If it was the case that people just aren’t toilet training their children then we are firm with parents at the outset. However, this is a child with a need and a parent willing to engage in this case. I don’t love that part of Early Years but I know that as a parent I wouldn’t want my child sitting in poop all afternoon and as a Teacher, a child sitting in poop is not learning anything. How can I honestly then say that I did everything I can to help that child make progress?

As another poster pointed out, if you spend some time at the outset ironing outbuilding trusting relationships with the children and ironing out the issues, you can get on with everything else.