AIBU to think this is unacceptable of the school

[anerki101]

My DS has suspected ASC. We have been waiting ages for a meeting with the school to discuss - that's another thread!

But anyway, DS is 4. Started school in Septemeber. He is 100% toilet trained nothing day and night. Never has accidents. Accept at school. If he doesn't do his daily poo at home after school, then he poos his pants at school. Its becoming an almost daily occurance. This started at the beginning of December. In all that time the staff have only noticed ONCE that he has had an accident and changed him.

Today I found out DS had done a poo in his pants between 12 and 1. I picked him up at 4:15. He'd been sitting in his own poo for three to four hours.

AIBU to think this is totally unacceptable?

The school are aware of these accidents. I have had several discussions with his teacher about preventing, etc. Nothing has worked so far but the biggest issue is that they aren't noticing he's had an accident and leaving him to sit in it all day.

Her physical conditions yes, but she will have a poo 'accident' between 1-4 times a day.

It's unpleasant, but it would be excessive and unfair to her, to take her out of mainstream for that alone. It would take away valuable resources from children that need the specialist provision.

Thankfully her future school is totally on board with doing personal care where needed.

@ouch321 It's not for 30 kids ffs! This child has suspected ASD! They have to make adjustments by LAW!!!!!

The school will have an intimate care policy. Meet with the teacher and senco and ask them to help you in line with this

Schools are slowly being choked of resources. My school has no SENDCo (no staff willing to train and no applications after two rounds of advertising), no site manager, two long term supply teachers, two supply TAs, 30% SEN aware (no funding) and limited ehcp funding. The school budget is in deficit and 5 TAs have left leaving 4 behind. No plans to recruit as the budget can't stretch. Mixed year group classes and several children that had very high behaviour needs so Headteacher and other adults are with them almost all day to stop harm to others. LA will not support suspensions at this point. So here we are. Staff cry regularly despite a supportive head. That's the reality for us and colleagues in a number of schools report similar circumstances. We cannot minimise the pressures faced by school staff at this time. It's appalling your child isn't being changed and you cannot get a meeting. But it is most likely not apathy or lack of compassion, but a broken system being held up by the sheer determination of staff to keep turning up every day to hope that they can make a difference and keep going just a bit longer.

@anerki101 If you feel a EHCP is needed are you aware that you can apply without school support? Organisations such as Sunshine Support can help.

@PeacockMansion

That sounds awful.

Is the EHCP system being abused/misused?

I don't understand where all these kids are appearing from. Why are there suddenly so many kids needing so much support?

Are they kids that would have just managed in the past? Now the system is expected to accommodate them, rather than the kids fitting into the system?

@ThisGirlNever the issue isn't abuse of the EHCP system. The issue is the reduction in funding of schools in real terms over the course of the Tory government. Hence no money for replacing TAs, harder to recruit a senco and harder to recruit teachers. Who wants to do the job when in real terms the salary has reduced massively in real terms?
On top of that the government have put more and more pressure on schools to "perform" and produce greater sats results while at the same time running down the profession by criticising them constantly.
Covid did for a lot of teachers. Constant changes at very short notice, high expectations with no support... Schools desperately trying to pick up the pieces.

Can any education system fund 30% SEN (in a regular school), as per @PeacockMansion's previous post?

@ThisGirlNever well they will be getting more SEN funding than some schools because it's based on the number of SEN in the previous year. Plus there's something of a correlation between PP and Sen (not totally obviously) so they may well have more PP money than many schools.

The funding still won't be enough though because of the huge cuts over the years.

And of course not every school will have that same figure. And some SEN can be supported without needing lots of extra money. It totally depends on what the SEN is. For example VI children may just need larger font or different seating arrangements. It's not that clear cut really.

If you don’t understand perhaps you should visit a local school. Some classes have 50% SEN and a lot of classes have poor behavior which isn’t SEN related.
Teachers are run ragged with chairs being thrown, kids fighting and being rude and disruptive.

How can anyone be expected to work in these conditions and produce high level outcomes?

What do you mean? If a child needs help with toileting and does not have an EHCP, the school cannot ignore that fact.. Unless the school has a nurse or welfare assistant - which is unusual - helping such children will, in primary schools at least, be a normal part of TAs' job descriptions.

So are you prepared to leave those children with toileting needs sitting in their own urine and faeces all day?

Sunshine Support is expensive. IPSEA and SOS SEN may be a better bet for many families.

Of course not. When have I said that? But without funding it becomes a highly tricky task where all children lose out.

It seems to me that the issue is that the EHCP system is underused. Schools tend to soldier on for too long without applying for EHCPs, encouraged by LAs that don't like applications and which fail to train SENCOs properly in what the relevant legal requirements are. All too often, teachers on these threads demonstrate that they don't know what the criteria are or how to frame evidence and the contents of EHCPs to ensure that the required support is properly specified.

If schools were more proactive about applying for EHCPs or supporting parents to do so, and also supporting parents with tribunal appeals where necessary, they could radically improve their own positions.

But is that sustainable?

TAs earn around £12k.

If a class of 30 kids has 2 TAs, that's probably another £35k+ added to the class budget when you factor in pensions, employer's NI, admin overhead, etc.

That's a lot of money on a national level.

Making it a legal responsibility, doesn't magic money out of thin air.

Until very recently, I suspect that a lot of kids with minor ASD issues would have just gone to school and learned. Now they have a legal right to XYZ support. That money comes out of the education budget and can't be spent on other things.

Apart from Norway, I can't think of any countries that can afford to spend the money required to fulfill these legal obligations.

Strange.

I have control over my bowels and can squeeze out a poo (maybe not a big one) if I sit there long enough.

It seems incredibly defeatist (which others have already commented on) to just say it can't be done without even trying.

Given your son is shitting himself every day at school, I'd have thought anything was worth a try.

Completely agree. Along with the mess that is SENDIST because LAs are refusing to assess &/or issue and when they do issue an EHCP issuing an unlawful one because LAs know a) not all parents will appeal, and b) even if they do the waits are extremely long.

Making it a legal responsibility, doesn't magic money out of thin air.

And yet LAs can afford to spend large sums of money hiring barristers to defend indefensible cases against unrepresented parents. If the general public knew how much they were spending on this they would be aghast.

@JustKeepBuilding which suggests the money at stake is huge - or it would in the private sector. Whether local authorities have completed a thorough cost/benefit analysis is another matter.

I’m just saying I wouldn’t want to change an older child and I wouldn’t want to do it for £12,000 a year either. Don’t think that’s a controversial point.

Yes, the sums are large sometimes. But the LAs know they are going to lose the vast, vast majority of appeals, they just know a) not all will appeal or see an appeal through to the end, and b) it kicks the can further down the road. These DC often then need more support longer term, and thus more funding, than they would if support had been forthcoming earlier.

You are 100% correct most people have no idea the lengths the LA’s go to to prevent children getting Ehcp’s putting out awful experts reports not fit for purpose and spending 6 figure numbers on barristers and legal teams to fight parents also telling schools to discourage parents for applying. Google Mark Small from Baker Small and you will get a snapshot of what parents are up against.

Not all children with autism will need an EHCP,and a 1:1
I think.my LEA is better than most ,we have two LEA,special primary schools and Two LEA special high schools and colleges ,we also.have two primary schools with ASD,Hubs and Two high schools with ASD,Hubs and.still not every child's needs are met.