School residential, school have said they have to go

[Y4GoingAway]

School Year 4, but it’s a first school so the final year at the school.

Apparently it’s compulsory and there is no provision in school for those who don’t go as the class teachers plus several other staff go.

I don’t want DD to go. She has a genetic condition that affects her muscles and joints. She also has an EHCP due to SN (not ASD)

The trip is canoeing and rock climbing and zip lining and orienteering. Which all sound great but schools only adjustment for DDs condition is she can sit out if she wants to, which she won’t because she never does for Forest School or PE or anything else physical, school say they cannot force DD to sit out. They have PE, Forest School and the morning mile in one day at school and DDs generally screaming in pain by 2pm, I’ve asked for her to sit out of Forest School and the mile but been told that it’s up to DD to decide and she wants to be like her friends so will push herself until she can’t cope anymore – she’s missed school the next day because of the pain and school just shrug and say she needs to tell them when she wants to sit out, while in the next breath saying she seems to refuse to acknowledge her condition as she won’t talk about it!

This isn’t about DD being away overnight, she stays away from me with ExH EOWend for 1 night and he usually takes her away for 3-4 days in the summer holidays plus she’s just done a 3 day pack holiday with Brownies. Also it’s not a cost thing, the trip itself is free, we’re being asked to donate to transport there and back either by paying school for the bus or getting our DC there ourselves.
Brownies where brilliant, they let her choose one active activity per day and then put her in the group that wasn’t doing that activity after she’d done it, so she did crafts or similar, all the girls where given the same opportunity to sit out so no-one knew why DD only did 1 per day – and we’ve agreed that next time she goes she’ll do different activities so she’s tried different things which is a great compromise. Brownies also kept her topped up on her pain medication which school refuse to give her.

They’ve told me they have no provision for giving pain relief on the trip which is the same in school. They’ve also said if children sit out of an activity they will just have to watch everyone else do it, there’s no staffing for them to have a group at the centre they’re staying in doing something else – I even said DD would be happy to do worksheets or similar.

And before anyone says “But there’s more going with school” there’s the same number at Brownies and Brownies had a bigger age range as school only take the 90 year 4s, whereas Brownies had 60 Brownies (7-10 year olds), 30 guides (10-14 year olds), and a couple of Rainbows (7 year olds) who’re ready to move to Brownies soon.

School have said if she doesn’t go they will not be providing alternative work, she will be the only one in her entire year not going and she will be supervised by “whichever member off staff is free”. She does have 1-1 TA for parts of the day and one of her two 1-1s won’t be going and I’ve offered to get her tutor she has outside of school to provide work (tutor has already offered) and I’ve been told again the trip is compulsory. Apparently they've never had anyone not go ever.

So AIBU and just have to suck it up? The trip is after half term.

I also think they are wrong. How on earth does this comply with the Equality Act. As I said above, the OP's dd isn't a baby, she's of an age when she knows what to take, all the staff have to do is make sure she takes it if she needs it. It's really not a big responsibility.

@Quinoawoman They've had eyeball on the EHCP as I chose the school at our last review and have accepted it. I have a meeting with them in April when the places for September are fully confirmed so that I can discuss in more detail. That middle school is actually closer to me than the First School she goes to is, so if it comes to it on my WFH days I can go in and give her pain reflief at lunchtime.

No that's not right. Discrimination can be indirect. So they say they won't give medication to any pupil, but that has a disproportionate effect on children with a disability, so is indirect discrimination.

Another example is treating part-time workers less well than full time workers - as it unduly discriminates against women - and indeed the disabled.

@lieselotte The 1-1 that is going on the trip is happy to give the pain relief. The issue is that the HofKS2 who is in charge of the trip and has overall responsibility will not take responsibility for it and won't allow it to be given. He's said he would not let a member of staff give insulin or inhalers either.

It's disappointing as Brownies managed it with DD, but I think if the lead teacher is not willing to compromise I won;t get anywhere with a complaint as it's not just DD he has this rule for.

I think he's discriminating against more than your DD if he would happily exclude children with asthma or diabetes from the trip.

I realise you can't do anything about this trip but I'd definitely make a formal complaint to the governors. He is going to get himself, his school and his local authority into trouble.

SENDIASS and the LA are wrong. Also, parents can’t be required to attend school or be made to feel like they are obliged to attend school to give medication. Here is the statutory guidance which states that.

Just because it is not just DD that is being discriminated against doesn’t mean it isn’t discrimination. You wouldn’t say it wasn’t discrimination if all e.g. Jewish pupils were being discriminated against, it would still be discrimination.

You don’t understand. The school has a legal responsibility to supply someone to attend. The lead isn’t allowed to refuse. If he is then someone else becomes the lead. They are discriminating against everyone that needs medication and this is illegal.
Also if they can’t cater for everyone to attend then the whole trip should should cancelled.
They also shouldn’t be asking you to go.. This in itself is discriminatory…

and in reply to his question… should they change the trip to accommodate one… yes they absolutely should!! You’re not asking them to change place or even cancel activities…just asking them to simply to their job and care.

Yup… as a mother of a type 1 diabetic I’d be suing their arses and he’d be sacked I’d expect.
OP needs to seek legal advice from disabled charities

Your DD and you have been treated disgracefully. I think the possibility of going is not there sadly.

Does the activity centre know that the school is discriminatory? Perhaps they ought to be aware, so as to protect themselves from any criticism.

I hope that the discussions that you are having with the new school your DD starts in September ensure no such discrimination from then on in.

I'd also bet that the Head of KS2 would take a different view if an assertive male parent or one with access to legal services tackled him.

this is definitely discrimination. they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. why on earth wait till she leaves the school before making the complaint - you can start the complaint now and there's a good chance that someone who actually knows the law and that has power to make them listen will tell them some actual truth. if there's a child who can't get through 24 hours without medication and you are planning an educational activity that will deny them medication for 24 hours or more then that is discrimination - their 'excuse' seems to be that the same rule is applying to everyone therefore they aren't discriminating which is a totally wrong misrepresentation of the law. treating everyone the same when some people have additional needs is discrimination, they are obliged to find a way to make reasonable adjustments to meet the additional needs.

I hope someone took notes at that meeting. Make sure you get a copy of exactly what was said by everybody. If not then write down everything you can remember, word for word where you can, and send a copy round everybody. Then send whichever of these you have, and the statuary guidance linked above to the chair of the governors, the LEA and a disability charity who can help. This is discrimination, it may be too late for dd but please don’t let this lie for the sake of all dc in coming years.

I would check how her next school would deal with this situation, you don’t want her missing trips every year, though she will eventually be able to give her own medication you need to check their rules about that too.

He wouldn’t give insulin either?!…. What about an epipen if someone had an allergy? Or CPR if a child collapsed? Basic first aid?? I think he’s in the wrong job!!
Teachers while children are in their care have a responsibility whether they like it not… if they don’t want that responsibility they stay at school and someone else goes on the trip ! I’d speak with the head and tell her you will be putting in an official complaint and seeking legal advice regarding disability discrimination in reference to the disability act 2010!!….
Trust me the head will poop themselves and won’t want that complaint on record… people have successfully sued (and received compensation for this sort of discrimination.
School can’t actually refuse a child with a disability and can’t refuse to give medication. This whole post has really got me angry. Our kids have enough going on without being discriminated against by the very adults they should be protected by (teachers etc)
My daughter has an incident at school (juniors) which sadly we couldn’t prove… however as a result she’s gone from being an extremely happy confident child to starting seniors and having anxiety attacks and not coping at all… The relationships she builds with adults now will affect her later… this trip is the start of her feeling excluded, different and ‘a problem’ that people don’t want to deal with..

My daughter now doesn’t trust anyone, is in counselling and recents her disability…

like I’ve said before.. if the school trip can’t cater for everyone then by law they either change it or cancel for everyone

Of course it’s discrimination. Just against a whole group of children rather than just your daughter…. My daughter needs insulin to live… if he refused to allow her to take medication while away then she could die!!… He can’t simply say ‘well she can’t come!’
Youre very laid back about it OP…. I’d be in that school shouting discrimination laws and regulations… I’d be calling OFSTED, disability charities .. you name it…. I wouldn’t let her go now due to their sheer neglect and abusive behaviour… but I’d still go mad as what they do on a daily basis to your daughter is disgusting… I think once you step away from the school and look back you’ll realise how unacceptable it is… at the moment I feel you’ve just plodded a long and excepted what they say

Shocking. The head needs to step in now because this is a disability access issue and on thin ice. The buck stops with the head and they need to do something about this.

@Y4GoingAway did you speak to the EHCP caseworker? If not please do.

From what I can gather because he's also saying he wouldn't take responsibility for any medication it's not discrimmination as it's not just DD who'd possibly be unable to go. It's just because I'm a single parent and can't afford unpaid leave that I can't go.

This is nonsense with bells on. If other children would be unable to go for this reason, then all it means is that they are discriminating against other children as well.

I'd strongly suggest you contact the helpline for the Equality and Human Rights Commission - equalityhumanrights.com/en - to get some advice and consider taking this one to the tribunal. It's important that this school gets educated as soon as possible for the sake of all disabled children placed there.

In your shoes OP, I would make a note of all the incredibly helpful legislation you've been linked to on this thread, and make a face to face appointment with the Headteacher on Monday. They surely can't be aware of the HOKS2's dismissive approach to disability discrimination, or they'd realise that the school are leaving themselves wide open to a legal challenge of some description. I can understand you not wanting your DD to go now though, I don't think I'd trust a teacher who didn't appear to want to do their best for a child. It's really shocking, I'm so sad to hear that this is happening in our schools.

HofKS2 kept saying he didn't want to be responsible and as he's the lead teacher for the trip it was in the end his call.

Well he is 100% wrong. His desire not to take responsibility does not trump the law! You should call the HT and ask them if they know this is what their HofKS2 is saying as it is in direct contravention of the 2010 Equality Act.

HofKS2 said that all DC had to take part in all activities and they cannot change the activities they've done every year for the past 8 years (bar covid years obviously) just because 1 child needs something different.

Again, this is EXACTLY what they are required to do, by law. This is a textbook definition of discrimination. I'd like to say I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge in some schools of their obligations, but the sad truth is, I'm not the slightest.

@Y4GoingAway if you don't lodge a complaint until after your DD has left the school, I don't believe the school has a legal obligation to consider it. I stand to be corrected on this, but that's what I was told 15 years ago, and that's why I at least launched my complaint before DCs moved on. And you really do need to make your point to the school, it's important that schools are not allowed to keep getting away with this shit.

Wow this is absolutely appalling.

The HofKS2 is discriminating against your dd. Not by the refusal to administer medication, but by refusing to allow the centre to support with reasonable adjustments- that is discrimination!

And not allowing a member of staff who is happy to administer the pain relief to do so, is not acceptable. That should not be their call. If an adult is happy taking that responsibility, they should be allowed to do so.

I know you're trying not to rock the boat for the last few months you have to send dd there, but this really should be taken further.
I'd be complaining to governors, I'd get your local MP involved even. Anything that might raise awareness and prevent these situations for the future.
I'm disgusted for you.

I agree with this 100%. If it is impossible for any pupils with medication and/or health/access needs to attend a trip, the trip is therefore unsuitable and doesn't go ahead. Obviously. Otherwise it's not a school trip for all students, it's a school trip for healthy and able students, which is obviously discriminatory and wrong. So appalling and I'm so sorry you're dealing with this, OP. Absolutely put in a complaint when you feel the time is right. I can understand a teacher not feeling comfortable being responsible for medication etc. (to me this indicates they maybe don't feel supported, maybe feel they are at risk liability wise etc.), but that means the trip doesn't go ahead, not that a child who needs medication isn't able to go.

I have led and accompanied numerous KS2 activity residentials and this is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Over the years we have made our residential available to children with cerebral palsy, type 1 diabetes, sickle cell, asthma, juvenile arthritis etc. The head of KS2 and the school in OP's case do not have a leg to stand on.

Please, please raise a complaint OP and quote all the legislation you can. Copy everything in writing to governors, local authority/academy trust etc. Not just for your daughter but for future children in that school.

I thought I'd update.

DD obviously missed the trip. She spent the week with Year 2 and actually got a lot out of the week I think. There was also a few strategically arranged medical appointments. Brownies also bigged her up as she was the only one from her year there that week and are going to let her be a Sixer after Easter (she doesn't know this yet though!)

Physio put a complaint into school via the Headteacher, I didn't know she'd done this until I got a call from the headteacher while the rest of Y4 where away. We had a meeting last week where I expressed my disappointment, I did say that I was impressed with previous teachers though and their bending of the rules so DD was still included in PE but without causing pain. But that this year, DDs final year has been a real disappointment.

Headteacher has taken everything into consideration, went away and spoke to DDs Year 2 and 3 teachers and asked both the Year 4 teacher and head of KS2 to put some adjustments in place for DD for the rest of the year. Has accepted that school where wrong to exclude DD from the trip and have not only refunded me the none refundable deposit but assured me of a place on the celebration trip at the end of Y4 with adjustments in place.

Next year HT has said she will personally check in with all the parents of DC with EHCPs before the trip to check that appropriate accomodations have been made or see if there's anything else they can do. She also said the staff involved with be spoken to by her before Easter and told it is not to happen again.

HT is also going to contact the HT of the Middle School to make them aware of the adjustments DD has in place and ensure that DD can go on the Y5 residential next year with adjustments in place.

Great outcome I think, and thanks to the physio for sorting that out! DD is excited for hopefully another try at a week away in Y5.

And what’s happening about the ridiculous policy that no one will administer medication?

@T1Dmama HT could only comment on our specific circumstances but has said in future if a member of staff on the trip is willing to accept responsibility for it and the medication can be obtained on prescription even temporarily (like in our situation) then it will be given.

That’s good then. Well done to the physio.
such a shame it wasn’t resolved earlier allowing her to go, but glad the remainder of year 4 is hopefully better.