To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

Which is what I assume she meant by "sexual organs".

Would you still feel that way if you lived in Afghanistan? Or do you think ‘gender’ is harmless because you personally have not been too constrained by it, due to the efforts of women before you to fight against it?

I appreciate that it isn't a harmless belief to support, and I don't think that people should be able to just wake up one day, call themselves the opposite gender and be able to access all of those safe spaces associated with members of that sex. I understand the issues around prisons, sports, shelters etc and of course there are times where there has to be a zero tolerance stance on accepting gender where the biological sex is the opposite.

I don't think that the gender critical stance is entirely harmless either as it leads to the exclusion of trans people (to enable inclusion for natal women). I think there is often a general lack of compassion for trans people on here. Trans women might not be accepted in a women's or a men's toilet - how do we square that? Or is it not our problem because they aren't biological women?

I think there is a small group of people with this kind of dysphoria which should be addressed first with therapy to explore and see if they can live happily as they are, with medical treatment if not as an adult.

If evidence based medicine did actually show cross sex hormones and cosmetic surgery helped then there might be a case for it. However, a man would still be a man after this and no one else should be expected to pretend otherwise. In reality such treatment has not been shown to help despite attempts to suggest this is because the rest of society doesn’t pretend hard enough.

Go on then, what does feeling like a woman feel like?
Literally explain it without stereotypes.

Trans women might not be accepted in a women's or a men's toilet - how do we square that? Or is it not our problem because they aren't biological women?

Why is what goes on in men's toilets women's issue? We have enough to deal with!

In what way are these male people women? Just because they say so?

In short, they should use facilities relating to their sex. This is the reason that segregated sex spaces exist. If I’m getting changed I don’t really care if the person next to me likes stereotypical things relating to women or fantasises about themselves as a woman, I care about do they have a make or female body. Do they have experience of male privilege, are they of a sex most likely to commit sex crimes and 100% of rapes. Trans women should use make facilities/prisons etc. if they don’t want to do that they should campaign for segregated facilities of their own. I should not have to compromise my feeling of safety and dignity in order to prioritise another group. Women are not to be used as human shields for another group who feel threatened by members of their own sex in sex segregated areas.

generally both sexes would be seen as containing both gendered attributes, feminine is seen as receptive and male projective energy.

Like all other gender expectations I find that utterly meaningless and actually quite an insult. It certainly places unnecessary expectations and boundaries upon some people.

Think about it: females are receptive are they? Why receptive? That's a concept based in sex, the act not the biology!

Males project energy do they? That is, surely, simply a polite way of saying they are more aggressive, and no I don't necessarily mean assertive.

Gendered expectations are the little boxes we are supposed to inhabit under a patriarchal system. And I don't care who defines or controls those boxes, men, gods, little blue fairies. As long as women are sweetness and light and men are go-getting providers I will eschew, and indeed remonstrate against, all such silliness every time I see it!

@SantaCarlaCalifornia given I've said "I definitely feel like a woman, even if that is just because I align with stereotypes that society has subconsciously enforced upon me." I'm not sure why you're asking me to explain without referring to stereotypes?

"Trans women might not be accepted in a women's or a men's toilet - how do we square that? Or is it not our problem because they aren't biological women?"

Where males go to use the toilet is not a feminist issue to solve. It has been positioned recently that feminism should be focused on solving all minorities issues. If you wish to take on solving that issue, please I encourage you to do so.

If you are aware of the issues, you would realise that third spaces have been suggested by feminists for many years now. They have been rejected. What more do you expect women to do?

The other thing that has been questioned is just how many gender non-conforming males are not accepted in male toilets vs how many have demanded that they use female toilets because of how they identify? Because we also hear many stories of fully transitioned males still using the male toilets and respecting that males still retain male cues that are read by a varying degree of females and their presence may cause distress to those females.

So, it also comes down to :

Where are the campaigns to start educating males to be fully accepting of all males in their toilets so no person feels that they are unsafe?

Why is the question never answered when it is asked 'where is the respect of any male when they demand to use a female single sex space (any female single sex space) fully knowing that they may have a high likelihood that a female will be distressed by their presence? How is that respectful? Why is this question never addressed by the lobby groups?

So, no. To be blunt, on the rejection of third spaces and other solutions, it is not for women to resolve another alternative because the female toilets are not appropriate for male's to use above a certain age.

Why do you think it's strange that other women only feel they are women because they are female?

I'm not aware of that, I thought the medical consensus was that for people with severe dysphoria it is the most effective treatment. I think it probably depends on the individual, which is why safeguards and gatekeeping are in everyone's best interest. I don't agree with the automatic affirmation model anyway.

A man may still be a man but equally transition can be very successful to the extent that 'pretending' isn't really an issue. Equally I have a friend who is entirely female and identifies as such who was congratulated by a match on Tinder for being brave enough to transition (fortunately she was pretty relaxed about it!)

"I don't think that the gender critical stance is entirely harmless either as it leads to the exclusion of trans people (to enable inclusion for natal women)."

Can you tell us where that exclusion is being sort and is not warranted? You have given examples where it IS. But can you tell us where you feel feminists are asking for exclusions where it is not warranted?

I don't think that the gender critical stance is entirely harmless either as it leads to the exclusion of trans people (to enable inclusion for natal women).

So you think all women's rights are unnecessary, not nice? What about disabled people? Shall we decide that disabled spaces exclude the able bodied...?

I think there is often a general lack of compassion for trans people on here.

Well yes. Usually it stems from a lack of critical thinking

Trans women might not be accepted in a women's or a men's toilet - how do we square that? Or is it not our problem because they aren't biological women?

They are men. They can use male facilities. Or, as is said so very, very often here, can lobby for properly designed single use non sexed facilities. You know, like those we find in smaller coffee shops etc?

But NOTHING about any transwoman requires that they use female services.

But that’s what I’m saying, these concepts have nothing to do with women or men!! They have been misappropriated by certain groups who try and use them incorrectly. They are concepts of spirituality nothing to do with how women or men feel. They happen to be called male and female for other reasons.

this is what happens when people take things out of context and why it keeps being thrown about by people wanting to say what male and female feels like in the case of men and women but it’s wrong and the two concepts shouldn’t be confused.

@SantaCarlaCalifornia given I've said "I definitely feel like a woman, even if that is just because I align with stereotypes that society has subconsciously enforced upon me." I'm not sure why you're asking me to explain without referring to stereotypes?

Ah ok then, @NalaNana, so why do you find it so surprising that other women don't feel that being a woman is about identifying with sex-based stereotypes?

Apologies @OMG12 that's all a bit too 'out there' for me.

It's OK because it is spiritual?
The terms used mean something special/other?

I am a woman because I am female. I feel like me! I have no idea what it is to feel like anyone/anything else!

I don't think that the gender critical stance is entirely harmless either as it leads to the exclusion of trans people (to enable inclusion for natal women)

This sentence. This sentence gets to the heart of it. This sentence says women should not have spaces for themselves if that bothers another group (of males). This sentence says women only have rights, if having those rights doesn't bother anyone else. If it does bother someone else, our rights and safeguarding can be dispensed with.

It is this attitude, this deeply held, subconscious attitude to women as secondary humans, that has allowed gender ideology to take such a hold.

The only reason for any "woman" stereotypes is that humans come in two sexes, male and female. They typically have particular sex characteristics.

no worries, I do think that it’s part of the problem, people hear these terms thrown around in their yoga class/ internet without understanding then apply it to other things.
mots usually a way of showing opposites which are both necessary in creation in the act of balance . If it helps in certain circumstances the feminine aspect can be associated with severity and male with mercy (which is opposite to what we would think.

I am a woman. I know this because I have anatomy the same as my mother, sister, daughters and other women I’ve met. I have a female reproductive system.

I don’t know if I ‘feel like a woman’ because I have only ever been inside my own mind. I feel like me.

I would say I am a mixture of both ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits (according to society’s ideas of gender right now.)

Until quite recently I was sympathetic to transgender people because I understood it as someone that severely struggled to live as their natal sex and required medical intervention to ‘transition’.

Since learning that anyone can regard themselves as transgender and must never be questioned about it, I’m not as supportive and sympathetic. From what I’ve seen, being ‘trans’ means adopting regressive gender stereotypes and so I now firmly reject gender ideology.

I can still feel sympathy for people who feel discomfort in their bodies but who are still in touch with reality about their sex and don’t spout tosh like ‘trans people are who they say they are.’

I have tried to follow various trans people on Twitter to learn more as I’ve been very confused and conscious about being on the right/wrong side and the more I learn, the more I find the trans movement problematic.

It could very well be. I say that because I once had a post deleted for pretty much the same as you've just stated, though mine was about 'non binary'.

I agree Bark!

I think most people here have had the same sort of journey.
You get told to educate yourself but they may not like what you find.

It is this attitude, this deeply held, subconscious attitude to women as secondary humans, that has allowed gender ideology to take such a hold.

Absolutely.