To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

👏👏👏

Where I'm at....

I'm a woman. I have female sexual organs & quite frankly I've never questioned my sex (or gender).

I still don't understand how you can feel that you're not your sex but that's kind of irrelevant.

The more I read, the more concerning I find the whole thing. I didn't realise the whole hormones/sport thing for instance (trans women being allowed to compete alongside women whereas trans men taking testosterone cannot compete in a men's competition)

I have a trans female college. As a man they were good at their job, now, not so much. They're preoccupied with appearance & wear "feminine" clothing that's not all that appropriately for the job we do. I don't know which bathroom they use but I don't want to bump into them in there - it does make me feel uncomfortable.

I think a lot of what I feel isn't "confusion" but more fear of being judged for what I think. Aforementioned colleague said they'd give people to "random date" to get used to their new name/pronouns but after that they'd report people to our employer for being transphobic.

A teen girl I know who has recently decided they're a boy fits all the stereotypes - likes what would be considered male sports, dresses in typically boy clothes, short hair etc. I feel like her becoming a "boy" will do nothing but disadvantage her. The more I read, the less I want to support this.

I feel like I want to share all this information but how do you do that without others viewing you in such a negative way & potentially (for me personally) losing your job.

Stereotypicallyconfused

Once you see it, you can never unsee it.

And once you work out that this is such a multi-faceted issue, it takes a great deal to calm the dissonance. As a mum of a teen who is quite vulnerable, this is such a concerning movement.

There are lots of podcasters about the different issues too depending on what is your particular concern.

And people like Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, Kellie Jay Keen and Dr Emma Hilton have also done interviews that might help to provide deeper references.

This video might also help. It may not be something you are interested in but the is up to you.

I have a trans female college. As a man they were good at their job, now, not so much. They're preoccupied with appearance & wear "feminine" clothing that's not all that appropriately for the job we do. I don't know which bathroom they use but I don't want to bump into them in there - it does make me feel uncomfortable.

Read up AGP. I would say more but MN might silence me even for this. We are not meant to talk about it (though they deny this at times).

Men need to change - that way the males who identify as trans can be accepted in the toilet designed for their sex. Yes there's a problem. Can you tell me why you think it is women's problem to solve it?

The stereotypes that society has about women is culturally and time specific. It is not possible to align yourself with all of them given that they are ever changing. What percentage of them do you need to align with? If that percentage changed would you still identify as a woman?

Which culture's stereotypes do you align with?

OK I'm kind of fascinated by this.

What reason do you have for "feeling like a woman" other than your sexual organs?

What does that mean to you?

Can you describe this gender identity that you feel you have?

Because I have absolutely no idea what a "gender identity which aligns with my biological sex" looks like. What are the features of an identity which aligns with having a vagina and a uterus? Is there really any such thing as an identity which all women and trans women share, and all men, trans men and non binary people don't share? If so, what is it, and why is it so difficult to describe?

I think gender is just stereotypes. I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't exist. But I don't think it is "real", if that makes sense. I'm about to give birth to a baby girl, and having bought my son all gender neutral sleepsuits so we could reuse them for a second child, I have found myself buying a few little pink sleepsuits this week, because newborn babies all pretty much look like potatoes, and I want people to be able to see she is a girl baby and not a boy baby. But pink sleepsuits won't be her identity. She won't even know she is wearing pink, or that she is a girl, or what a girl is. That will come later.

I am an adult woman and when I am trying to look nice I like to dress in a stereotypically feminine way. I like dresses and high heels. I have that in common with trans women, I suppose. But there are plenty of women who never wear dresses or heels. What do they have in common with trans women? Nothing, as far as I can see.

If gender is about conforming to stereotypes, does it really make sense to define women as people who wear dresses and heels, most or at least some of the time? These things are superficial fashion choices. Why do we need a word for this group of people? When would we ever need to classify people according to whether they wear dresses and heels? Who decides whether someone wears dresses and heels often enough to be considered a woman?

We do need a word for humans of the female sex because there are situations in which we need to classify people according to that. We need to be able to identify the class of people who can get pregnant and therefore need female contraception, maternity care, abortion rights and specific maternity-related protection under the law. We need to be able to explain which people need smear tests and which people need their prostates checked. We need to be able to accurately record crime statistics. And of course, in sport, it is clear cut. We need to have separate competitions for male and female athletes, otherwise female athletes would not have the chance to compete and win.

I am not sure what gender identity really is, or why we need to care about it any more than we need to care about someone's favourite colour or their star sign. It may be hugely important to them, but it is not important to anyone else. Their sex, however, IS relevant.

So perhaps you might find it strange that so many women don't feel like women for reasons other than their sex organs, but perhaps you should flip that round and ask yourself whether it isn't far more strange to consider yourself a woman because of what stereotypes you choose to conform to, or what personality traits you have.

At the end of the day, if "woman" is a gender identity, it should be easy to describe. It would be an identity shared by around half the population, making them easily distinguishable from the other half, who share the gender identity of "man". If it's not possible to do that, then I don't believe any such thing exists.

And if a trans woman's gender identity doesn't have anything to do with women, or other people in general, why on earth should it be a justification for them to compete in the same sporting categories as women, or use the same single sex spaces? Where's the logic?

Have a gender identity if you must. But it is personal to you, and I don't want to be involved. And I don't want to be forced to say I am not a woman in order to refute the completely false assumption that I share a gender identity with trans women.

I find it v strange if we were prevented from discussing a recognised psychological disorder that’s clearly set out in DSM 5 (much to TRAs disgust!)

I don't think that the gender critical stance is entirely harmless either as it leads to the exclusion of trans people (to enable inclusion for natal women).

Exclusion from what? They have exactly the same rights as any other adult. I can't be a pupil in a primary school class, because I'm 51 years old. Would you say I'm being 'excluded'? I also shouldn't be able to be accepted for a grant or award for black writers or musicians, because I'm white. Am I being excluded? Biological males should not be allowed in female spaces, because they are not female. Do you really think that is 'exclusion of trans people to enable inclusion for natal women? By the way, the word 'natal' is completely unnecessary there.

agree 100%, and so very well put.

This is an exceptionally good comment.

And yes, the age old opinion that women are secondary human was hidden from public view for a few years because men knew that saying it out loud would lead to backlash. It's never gone away, just been hidden, but gender ideology has given those men a ideal opportunity to openly insult and abuse women. It's a misognist's wet dream - do and say what you want and scream bigot at the women who protest or disagree.

I feel like I want to share all this information but how do you do that without others viewing you in such a negative way & potentially (for me personally) losing your job.

That's the $64 million question!

I think on a personal level, you can go slowly, be sure of your facts, ask questions rather than making statements ... but ultimately have to make peace with the fact that some people will view you negatively - however reasonable you are, however much you hedge and qualify and balance, some people just won't hear it.

At work, pick your battles, be certain of your facts, and know your legal basis (and make sure others know you know your legal basis).

But it's hard. There's no doubt about that. I never feel I can be as open and direct about the issues as I'd like.

@Stereotypicallyconfused read up on the Maya Forstater case, where believing biological sex is real was deemed a legally protected belief to have.

It's means you can't be discriminated against for your beliefs and you have every right to discuss those beliefs free from persecution for doing so.

Read about the Tavistock and it's closure.

Read Helen Joyce.

You'll soon find all the facts that allow you to have fair play conversations about what is or isn't known, what is or isn't evidenced. What risks are a real versus propaganda.

You can choose to call your colleague by their new pronouns and name if you want to but you can do so whilst rejecting gender ideology. What someone wants to be named isn't new, anyone can choose a new name and that fine. But change your sex? No.

Good luck 😉

I love this sketch, and especially those last couple of lines!

If anyone has a keen interest in this issues facing our children and teens, you might find this interesting reading.

segm.org/false-assumptions-gender-affirmation-minors

there is another version here

www.realityslaststand.com/p/5-false-assumptions-behind-youth

The SEGM is the Society for Evidence based Gender Medicine and is an international consortium of clinicians from different disciplines who are involved in treating Gender issues.

The article addresses five areas of focus that they feel have not been proven adequately for treatment to have been based on these assumptions.

Unproven Assumption 1: Gender identity, which underlies gender dysphoria, is a fundamental personal characteristic that is biologically “ingrained.”

Unproven Assumption 2: The sharp rise in the number of youth presenting with gender dysphoria does not signal a true increase in cases—it’s merely better detection.

False Assumption 3: Medical interventions in gender-dysphoric minors have clear eligibility criteria.

False Assumption 4: Medical interventions for gender dysphoric minors have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Unproven Assumption 5: Detransition does not represent medical harm and is rare.

If there is one thing that following this debate as closely as I have had done, it has made me very suspicious of research studies.

Here is another interesting article from Stella O’Malley on Genspect.

genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

This article looks at a Dutch journalist investigation into the shortcomings of the haloed ‘Dutch Protocol’ which has served as a basis to the current ‘affirming only’ treatment plan that was instigated in many countries health systems.

Just a note though: the current ‘affirming only’ plans have deviated from the Dutch Protocol significantly due to advise from lobbyists such as WPATH and we ended up with health providers ignoring the deep ‘exploratory’ stages of the Dutch Protocol.

And… the push for ‘conversion therapy’ bans for trans health care have been kept vague and ambiguous but can be twisted to include that exploratory therapy work being included as ‘conversion therapy’ because it is not the demanded affirming only treatment. And this has already happened in some countries who have passed these laws, it is not scaremongering.

Hence both the Cass Review here in the UK and the delay in passing the conversion therapy ban for trans people in the UK.

I hope some readers and posters find these links useful to sort through some of the misconceptions that often appear on threads and via social media.

I do think that as women we

1. have a duty to other women to protect women only spaces and facilities.
2. protect girls from a dangerous ideology which will damage them in the longer term.
3. Ensure that we inform others about the harms that this ideology does politically.
4. actively resist this in our workplaces, social areas, in our families.

Just wanted to highlight this excellent post again, for anybody who might have missed it. The quoted sentence does indeed summarise the whole BeKind "thought" process in a nutshell: female humans as nothing more than partially sentient support bipeds to service the desires of actual people a.k.a. men.

There has never been a civil rights movement that takes away the rights of another group in order to progress its own.

Until now.

Absolutely. Absolutely, this.

We need to push back against this dishonest use of the word "inclusive" as though it is an unqualified good thing.

No.

Female is not supposed to include male.

Women's sports are not supposed to include male athletes.

Women's changing rooms, toilets and rape crisis groups are not supposed to include your penis.

Women are not your support humans.

Everything in the world is already inclusive of, and indeed designed for the benefit of, male people. Every situation in the world where we have single sex spaces for women, we also have single sex spaces for men. There are men's sports, men's toilets, men's changing rooms and men's prisons. You already have your own spaces. The fact that you don't want to use them and want to use ours instead should not be our problem.

The only places in the world which are not already inclusive of male people are the places which are not supposed to include you, by design.

Women should not need anyone's permission to do things for our own benefit, regardless of whether men agree or not.

I can't get my head around the kind of women who say, "oh but we must not exclude trans people".

Exclude them from what? Not being allowed to use a single sex space for members of the opposite sex does not equal being excluded from anything unless there are no equivalent spaces for members of your own sex, which there are.

When it comes down to it, this is just about some people not wanting women to have anything for ourselves.

Ffs, aforementioned parent who's child is suddenly a boy has said that the child still wants to play sport in their all girl team. 🤬

Why do they think that's ok?! Surely if you want to be a boy then the last place you should be is an all girl sports team.

Continuing to play on the girls' team is fine, as she has a girl's body, and it will keep her in touch with that body's abilities.

The 'transgirl' on our local school boys' football team quietly desisted a year or so back, having retained his fitness and his friends through a difficult adolescence.

It's just a change of words. It doesn't affect anything about the body.

If the child is a girl (in the actual sense of the word) - the girls team is the correct one for them to play in. They can do that while having short hair and answering to Dave. What is not OK is for David to decide he feels like a girl and play on the girls team because he has long hair and answers to Davina. Sex (biological) matters - feeling don't trump that when it comes to separating two distinct groups for things such as sports, prisons and changing rooms.