To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

Cis is literally just a prefix that is the opposite of the prefix trans. So it’s not a “non term” - it’s just English!

It's a scientific term, not used about people. And it's Latin, used geographically. Not used by "the man on the street" since that man wore braccae and carried a gladius.

Recycled by a "sexologist" pre WWI, by an interesting gay man, Ernst Buchard

And if you REALLY want to accept people by how they do or do not identify, I don't identify, am not cis. So stop forcing your own world view upon me...

Excellent book op. It will help.

Issues around gender occur from people now wanting to be viewed in a particular way. Some people may not want to be defined as 'feminine' for example and this may eventually lead to them referring to themselves as non-binary

This is exactly what I think is regressive and sexist about this movement. No woman should think she has label herself out of womanhood because she does not fit a cultural sexist stereotype.

Feminism is about the whole of human potential being open to women as women ( and men as men), without being limited by sexist stereotypes.
This movement encouraged people to think of men and women in terms of sexist stereotypes. It’s a disgrace.

I still don't get the need for teens to be declaring themselves non binary for the same reasons. Both sexes can just be any type of male of female and wear what they want and be into what ever they want.

If you want to know about the science of gender rather than the issue of gender (that is, to what extent there is an actual difference between male and female brains and whether it's therefore possible to have a female brain in a man's body, or vice versa - and how to recognise good and bad science on this question), then I recommend Gina Miller's The Gendered Brain.

And for an illustration of why - in day to day, practical terms - it matters that we can classify women as a sex class, define their specific needs, and cater to those needs: Caroline Criado Perez' Invisible Women.

Invisible Women, in particular, is very good at illustrating why it matters to everyone.

Very few of us will spend time in prison or become elite athletes, and we all hope to avoid the need for hospital stays and long term care.

But almost everyone regularly takes medicine (even if only an aspirin or antihistamine), puts on a car seat belt, uses some sort of equipment or tool for their job, or wears shoes. And for all these things, sex matters.

You’re not a “cis” woman, because there’s no such thing. You’re just a woman, a female.

Cis implies we all “identity” as our “gender” - which means women embracing the negative, regressive sex based stereotypes that see us being treated as lesser than men.

You don’t have a gender identity, because it doesn’t exist. You have a biological sex (which cannot be changed), and a personality. That’s it. All the rest of it is negative stereotyping. Eg - total bollocks.

Three of my grandsons wear stereotypically female clothes - pinks, flowers etc. - but are males with attraction to females. One of my DDs sent me a link for an Xmas present for on eof them - a T-shirt with a big daisy on the front.

I think it is great that they feel they can wear what the hell they want; we need more of this.

I'm a cis woman

You're a woman. What do you think "cis" means?

Really? I don't think I've ever seen a post from a trans person on mumsnet.

I've seen hundreds, if not thousands.

oh for heavens sake why are you so interested in directing this conversation to JKR's views? OP isn't asking about JKR, she's trying to understand trans people, why can't you see that JKR is not going to aid her in that understanding?

Then leave JKR out of it yourself. You brought her up.

If you say the word ‘bundle’ three times then one appears.

I'm surprised so few women feel like women for reasons other than their sexual organs. I definitely feel like a woman, even if that is just because I align with stereotypes that society has subconsciously enforced upon me. I certainly don't feel like a man, and would be offended if I was referred to as one. I would say that I am a cis woman - my gender identity aligns with my biological sex.

Whether others feel aligned to a gender identity, or even accept that gender identity exists, is a matter for them but it doesn't change the way that I feel, or countless others.

I've never actually encountered anyone in real life that shares what seems to be the mainstream view on Mumsnet except my father who is gender critical. He is a very rational and reasoned man without a transphobic bone in his body, but I would echo a previous poster re: the aggressive attitude of a lot of posters on this topic. It can come across as rather extreme at times!

If you say the word ‘bundle’ three times then one appears.

Don't

I'm surprised so few women feel like women for reasons other than their sexual organs.

We are our bodies. What else do you think is being referred to?

What does "feeling like a woman" feel like, and how does it differ from just knowing which sex you are?

the aggressive attitude of a lot of posters on this topic. It can come across as rather extreme at times!

Au contraire! It's the doxxing and silencing and rape threats from TRAs that are aggressive, not a group of intelligent and well-reasoned women arguing their point.

I mean there is a spiritual meaning of genders that appear in many spiritual traditions but these have nothing to do with “feeling like a woman” or indeed man and generally both sexes would be seen as containing both gendered attributes, feminine is seen as receptive and male projective energy. Feminine energy is not linked to being a woman who should have equal balance of both genders within I think some people take these concepts out of spirituality and misappropriate them into the physical world. But this is totally wrong.

But I’ve had people try and argue this is what is meant by gender (in the trans world) with absolutely no understanding (blame the new age movement and tik tok).

"Whether others feel aligned to a gender identity, or even accept that gender identity exists, is a matter for them but it doesn't change the way that I feel, or countless others."

Perhaps if you looked further into it, you might understand that it is not a 'harmless' belief to be supported. It is a belief that has resulted in changes in law that leave loopholes that are harmful to women and children.

If it was just a matter of 'let them identify as they want' and nothing more, do you honestly think people would be pushing back on this.

And sadly, for their 'identity' to be valid, it does indeed forcibly change the definition of the words that people use to describe themselves.

Of course those actions are extreme it can't be argued otherwise, but I'm referring to the general style of discussion on here, not crazed TRAs. As far as I have seen there isn't much of that on here 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, I would estimate over the past two years it would be in the thousands too.

I think for people with gender dysphoria it feels like your sexed body doesn't match what you internally 'know' you should be. Maybe a bit like some amputees get phantom pain without the limb actually being there. For whatever reason our brain wiring can occasionally not match our physical reality.

I realise not all trans people have this diagnosis and there's a lot of talk about being 'feminine' or having 'girl' interests which is less than helpful. I think there is a small group of people with this kind of dysphoria which should be addressed first with therapy to explore and see if they can live happily as they are, with medical treatment if not as an adult.

That seems to give the best outcomes and personally I have zero problem with respecting and accommodating that but it should go both ways, i.e. big beardy blokes should understand that is how they are perceived regardless of any dysphoria they may have, and act accordingly, given the importance for most people of having safe and comfortable single sex facilities etc. IMO trans people who are reasonable and mature would do that anyway and ultimately just want to blend in.

What does "feeling like a woman" feel like, and how does it differ from just knowing which sex you are?

@NalaNana I'm genuinely interested in your answer.

I think for people with gender dysphoria it feels like your sexed body doesn't match what you internally 'know' you should be.

Thank you, but I wasn't asking about people with gender dysphoria, a psychological health issue. I was asking a woman who said she can't understand why many women only think they are women because they are of the female sex.

Well when a group of people are trying to wipe out the identity of over half the population, trying to silence them to not discuss threats to safety, to change the established vocabulary around them, hijack or undermine their hard fought for rights. When concerns about lifelong damage to their children that is actively promoted are silenced with threats of violence, where a woman is called bigoted for not wanting people with penises (the mechanism of rape) in their safe spaces then yes people get angry. Anger is a good emotion in the right circumstances, and these are the right circumstances.

if women hadn’t got angry about not having the vote, been prepared and actually did fighting for the cause where would women be now? It would be interesting to see how many men are clamouring to public ally identify as women in countries where women have no rights.