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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have questions about sex/gender

294 replies

Stereotypicallyconfused · 01/01/2023 10:59

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 03/01/2023 13:18

The whole thing is arseways. Your gender identity, assuming you think you have one, shouldn't matter to anyone but you. Who cares?

Your sex on the other hand, is important in various circumstances.

All of the problems with these issues arise from attempts to conflate and confuse the two.

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 03/01/2023 13:20

NalaNana · 03/01/2023 12:23

@SantaCarlaCalifornia given I've said "I definitely feel like a woman, even if that is just because I align with stereotypes that society has subconsciously enforced upon me." I'm not sure why you're asking me to explain without referring to stereotypes?

At the weekend I will be watching football in jeans and a hoodie and probably having a couple of pints in a pub after on Sunday. On Saturday evening I will be 'glammed up' in a dress and heels with make up on and my hair 'done' slipping cocktails. I won't feel less like a woman on Sunday - I will still feel like me. Doing a 'typically male' activity in appropriate clothing doesn't change who (or what) I am.

TheKeatingFive · 03/01/2023 13:27

I mean, no one entirely conforms with either set of gender stereotypes.

OMG12 · 03/01/2023 13:29

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 03/01/2023 12:30

Apologies @OMG12 that's all a bit too 'out there' for me.

It's OK because it is spiritual?
The terms used mean something special/other?

I am a woman because I am female. I feel like me! I have no idea what it is to feel like anyone/anything else!

It’s also helpful to recall that nearly all ancient myths and religions have powerful gods and goddesses who represent elements of a divine source. Christianity has seen this too with Gnostic Christianity’s Sophia then there’s all the controversy about the Elohim (the creator in Genesis 1. It is a feminine base noun with a plural masculine end (although the act of creation is written as a singular reference). It says the Elohim created man and woman in their likeness they created them. Probably much lost over time but indicates both masculine and feminine parts to many (of course much of Genesis was borrowed from polytheistic religions which had gods and goddesses). So yes all about balance to create. Isis, Osiris, Horus, god the father, son and holy spirit(usually seen as feminine) etc. it’s just a patriarchal society had tried to erase much of that.

At it very base I suppose there is a link to the physical a man projects his speak out a woman receives it to create (but then it becomes purely allegorical)

OMG12 · 03/01/2023 13:30

Sperm not speak 😂

Britinme · 03/01/2023 14:12

TheKeatingFive · 03/01/2023 13:18

The whole thing is arseways. Your gender identity, assuming you think you have one, shouldn't matter to anyone but you. Who cares?

Your sex on the other hand, is important in various circumstances.

All of the problems with these issues arise from attempts to conflate and confuse the two.

This.

GreyCarpet · 03/01/2023 14:24

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 12:01

I think for people with gender dysphoria it feels like your sexed body doesn't match what you internally 'know' you should be. Maybe a bit like some amputees get phantom pain without the limb actually being there. For whatever reason our brain wiring can occasionally not match our physical reality.

I realise not all trans people have this diagnosis and there's a lot of talk about being 'feminine' or having 'girl' interests which is less than helpful. I think there is a small group of people with this kind of dysphoria which should be addressed first with therapy to explore and see if they can live happily as they are, with medical treatment if not as an adult.

That seems to give the best outcomes and personally I have zero problem with respecting and accommodating that but it should go both ways, i.e. big beardy blokes should understand that is how they are perceived regardless of any dysphoria they may have, and act accordingly, given the importance for most people of having safe and comfortable single sex facilities etc. IMO trans people who are reasonable and mature would do that anyway and ultimately just want to blend in.

Within the current trans doctrine, gender dysmorphia is regarded as transphobic.

That is how bad it has got. I think everyone felt sympathy with people who felt that way but stonewall and others over away from the 'being born into the wrong body' trope a while ago.

In the eyes of the TRAs, old skool transsexuals are as transphobic as anyone else 🤷🏻‍♀️

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:02

GreyCarpet · 03/01/2023 14:24

Within the current trans doctrine, gender dysmorphia is regarded as transphobic.

That is how bad it has got. I think everyone felt sympathy with people who felt that way but stonewall and others over away from the 'being born into the wrong body' trope a while ago.

In the eyes of the TRAs, old skool transsexuals are as transphobic as anyone else 🤷🏻‍♀️

I know, and I think that's barmy tbh. It's only a few very 'online' people who really think that way though and even they must have the odd doubt.

Without dysphoria there is no issue, without transitioning there is no 'trans'. That said if people want to wear different things and identify a certain way and that makes them happier then I don't see much of a problem, and I'm not going to critique the nuances of someone else's self-perception. Obviously not talking about in situations where things are grouped by/affected by your sex.

JusteanBiscuits · 03/01/2023 15:06

No trans person I know would turn you away for asking respectful questions. They're all more than happy to talk openly about it until someone is rude to them.

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:08

But tbh I don't fully agree with aspects of the 'GC' position e.g. saying on the one hand there's nothing 'feminine' about a boy liking stereotypically girly things or nothing 'masculine' about liking boy stuff and then in the same breath usually mention they may turn out to be gay. It just seems to be swapping gender stereotypes with gay (and also gender adjacent) stereotypes and if it is true then maybe they should think about why there is that tendency.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 15:14

OMG12 · 03/01/2023 13:30

Sperm not speak 😂

Oh, I think sperm was closer. Myths and history usually having been written by men 🙂

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 15:18

JusteanBiscuits · 03/01/2023 15:06

No trans person I know would turn you away for asking respectful questions. They're all more than happy to talk openly about it until someone is rude to them.

Mmm! The trans people I have known for decades? Yes. That is true.

Those I met more recently? No. They set out to wreck the financial standing of a place I work. Tried to shame me into silence (and partially succeeded) and sent very specific threats to my employer and the local council.

There are many posts across FWR where it is made plain that it is usually TRAs rather than known transpeople who are the issue, the angry men offering harm.

GreyCarpet · 03/01/2023 15:19

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:02

I know, and I think that's barmy tbh. It's only a few very 'online' people who really think that way though and even they must have the odd doubt.

Without dysphoria there is no issue, without transitioning there is no 'trans'. That said if people want to wear different things and identify a certain way and that makes them happier then I don't see much of a problem, and I'm not going to critique the nuances of someone else's self-perception. Obviously not talking about in situations where things are grouped by/affected by your sex.

Sadly, it's not just online. It's rife in universities.

I say that as the mother of a recent graduate... I don't know about having doubts. They just seem to shut it down immediately so that they don't have the opportunity to think about it.

Meanwhile, laws are being changed and safeguarding for women and children is seen as unfair to men.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 15:22

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:08

But tbh I don't fully agree with aspects of the 'GC' position e.g. saying on the one hand there's nothing 'feminine' about a boy liking stereotypically girly things or nothing 'masculine' about liking boy stuff and then in the same breath usually mention they may turn out to be gay. It just seems to be swapping gender stereotypes with gay (and also gender adjacent) stereotypes and if it is true then maybe they should think about why there is that tendency.

I think you may need to take that a step further. What 'tendency'?

If liking pink, swirly skirts is something bother men and women do then it shouldn't be labelled as 'feminine'. And then sexuality wouldn't matter, being a gay man wouldn't be given that label, usually meant in a derogatory manner. This insulting women as well as some men.

babyjellyfish · 03/01/2023 15:26

Haven't RTFT.

I don't believe that I am defined by my sex. I do, however, believe that what makes me specifically a woman IS defined by my sex, because I believe that sex is the only actual difference between men and women. Everything else is just stereotypes, which I reject. This is why I don't believe trans women are women, or trans men are men, however nice they might be or however much they might genuinely believe in their identity.

Someone's personal identity is just that: personal. It doesn't define them in relation to other people. So take someone like Lia Thomas, for example, who believes that their own personal identity as a woman should entitle them to compete in women's swimming events, I think that is just wrong. Lia's identity has nothing to do with the female swimmers. They have nothing in common.

"Man" and "woman" aren't words we use to describe personal identities, they are words we use to distinguish between one half of the population and the other half, on the basis of shared characteristics. Women don't have any shared characteristics with trans women, and men don't have any shared characteristics with trans men. Trans women have a shared characteristic with men: being biologically male. And trans men have a shared characteristic with women: being biologically female. Nobody is "non binary"; that is a complete nonsense which relies on the assumption that everyone else conforms to narrow gender stereotypes associated with men or women, which we don't.

I think if you want the rest of society to treat you as being the opposite sex to the one you actually are on the basis of your personal identity, then yes, actually, you should have to do the emotional labour of being able to explain what the hell it is you are actually identifying with and what you think it has to do with other people.

Like you, I used to come at this from a "be kind" perspective. But now I see that the whole thing is incredibly unkind and unfair to women, and very damaging to children and young people. It absolutely does just reinforce regressive stereotypes. And for what? Who is benefiting?

Transgender males who say they identify as women get access to women's single sex spaces and women's sports, to the detriment of women. Transgender females who say they identify as men get...well, I'm not sure what, exactly. Nobody really cares which toilets they use or which sporting categories they want to compete in, because they're no threat to men.

But let's just look at the difference in treatment of transgender male athletes and transgender female athletes. Transgender male athletes are allowed to compete as women provided they get their testosterone down to a certain level, which is still much higher than any biological woman's level, and doesn't negate the advantages of having gone through male puberty. They get to compete as women even though they have a clear unfair advantage. Transgender female athletes, on the other hand, aren't allowed to compete at all if they have been taking testosterone, because it is a performance enhancing substance and therefore banned. It makes sense for them to be banned from competing against women if they have been taking testosterone, but there's no real reason why they should be banned from competing against men, since taking testosterone doesn't give them an unfair advantage compared to biological men. So transgender male athletes get to have their cake and eat it, whereas transgender female athletes have to choose between hormones and sport.

Take any aspect of this debate and ask yourself who has the privilege. It's always the ones who were born with a penis. Always.

OMG12 · 03/01/2023 15:37

GreyCarpet · 03/01/2023 14:24

Within the current trans doctrine, gender dysmorphia is regarded as transphobic.

That is how bad it has got. I think everyone felt sympathy with people who felt that way but stonewall and others over away from the 'being born into the wrong body' trope a while ago.

In the eyes of the TRAs, old skool transsexuals are as transphobic as anyone else 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think that there are certain people who first hijacked the LGB community and integrated themselves in there, hijacking their hard fought for rights (and trying to shut down snd oppress women in that community) now they want to do the same for women generally.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/01/2023 15:39

Excellent post, babyjellyfish

JusteanBiscuits · 03/01/2023 15:50

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 15:18

Mmm! The trans people I have known for decades? Yes. That is true.

Those I met more recently? No. They set out to wreck the financial standing of a place I work. Tried to shame me into silence (and partially succeeded) and sent very specific threats to my employer and the local council.

There are many posts across FWR where it is made plain that it is usually TRAs rather than known transpeople who are the issue, the angry men offering harm.

I don't know what FWR stands for. I have problems with the over use of acronyms.

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:52

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 15:22

I think you may need to take that a step further. What 'tendency'?

If liking pink, swirly skirts is something bother men and women do then it shouldn't be labelled as 'feminine'. And then sexuality wouldn't matter, being a gay man wouldn't be given that label, usually meant in a derogatory manner. This insulting women as well as some men.

It's not me saying that- countless times on the feminist board you get posters saying most young people who identify as the other sex are likely gay and confused.

Helleofabore · 03/01/2023 16:04

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 15:52

It's not me saying that- countless times on the feminist board you get posters saying most young people who identify as the other sex are likely gay and confused.

Well, a huge % of female teens identifying as trans are lesbians. And why do you think that a huge % if teens and children identifying as trans are not confused by what it means, or have little understanding beyond the superficial level?

I will go and get the stat of female teens who have trans identities and are lesbian for you. It is much higher in proportion than the general population. Do you think that should be considered as 'normal'?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 16:04

Ah! That's possibly because that's what comes out of various studies, desister stories etc

The threads about 'conversion therapies' have a lot of links and detailed discussion about that.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 16:07

JusteanBiscuits · 03/01/2023 15:50

I don't know what FWR stands for. I have problems with the over use of acronyms.

Ah! It's not really overuse. It's just what the feminist, women's issues part of the site has historically been called.

Just read as "this specific part of MN".

TRAs are TransActivists. Almost a forced term here as almost any other attracts monitors from elsewhere who report and have posts deleted.

That's the same with quite a lot of the language used in this part of MN

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 16:11

Helleofabore · 03/01/2023 16:04

Well, a huge % of female teens identifying as trans are lesbians. And why do you think that a huge % if teens and children identifying as trans are not confused by what it means, or have little understanding beyond the superficial level?

I will go and get the stat of female teens who have trans identities and are lesbian for you. It is much higher in proportion than the general population. Do you think that should be considered as 'normal'?

I don't know whether it's normal or not but not sure you understood my previous point. No worries anyway. Just my thoughts.

JusteanBiscuits · 03/01/2023 16:16

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/01/2023 16:07

Ah! It's not really overuse. It's just what the feminist, women's issues part of the site has historically been called.

Just read as "this specific part of MN".

TRAs are TransActivists. Almost a forced term here as almost any other attracts monitors from elsewhere who report and have posts deleted.

That's the same with quite a lot of the language used in this part of MN

You used two acronyms in one sentence. But I used "over use" as in, in general. I can't keep up with them in all the different areas of my life.

I think you might be saying what I always say. That trans men / women are not the problem or issue. It's certain sections of men who are the problem.

Helleofabore · 03/01/2023 16:23

Aspiringmatriarch · 03/01/2023 16:11

I don't know whether it's normal or not but not sure you understood my previous point. No worries anyway. Just my thoughts.

Yes... I may have.

"But tbh I don't fully agree with aspects of the 'GC' position e.g. saying on the one hand there's nothing 'feminine' about a boy liking stereotypically girly things or nothing 'masculine' about liking boy stuff and then in the same breath usually mention they may turn out to be gay. It just seems to be swapping gender stereotypes with gay (and also gender adjacent) stereotypes and if it is true then maybe they should think about why there is that tendency."

But it seems that what you are saying is that feminists are making the assumptions based on sexual orientation stereotypes??? is that what you are saying?

Because it is not quite accurate. It seems that it is actually that the patients themselves (or homophobic parents) that are making these stereotypes into diagnosis.

segm.org/GIDS-puberty-blockers-minors-the-times-special-report

In other words, it is now widely acknowledged that both homosexual teens and teens who are diagnosed with ADHD or ASD or anxiety or mental health issues or trauma are over represented in the patients being referred to GIDS.

That is not feminists making those stereotyped assumption though.

It is feminists who are raising the alarm that these children and teens are over represented and that too little attention was paid by those in decision making roles as to why!!