To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

Prolly should ask trans people about this, Mumsnet isn't exactly the best source for unbiased information on the trans community.

And you think you'd get unbiased information from the trans community?

I think that the "trans community " is a narrow segment of the total trans population

There is a world of difference between say India ( ?) and buck angel in what they think and how they feel

@belowfrozen - I think we have a generation that is looking at adolescence through the lens of gender very intently, and it will be worked through and will seem a bit cringe to kids a few years younger!

So they're thinking 'I'm not like most girls, maybe I'm non binary" or 'i don't like the way my body is changing and I'm not sure who I am [ie, normal adolescent feelings], maybe I'm trans' I suspect the vast majority of these kids will move away from trans identity as they actually start maturing sexually, although I think it's also possible we will see more non binary people in general.

The moving away is not, of course, going to take the form of actually saying they're not trans, it's just going to be, as has just happened with the first of DCs mates to ID as non binary, going back to their original name and saying (verbatim quote from this friend) 'Oh whatever' when asked about pronouns- ie, letting everyone drift back to their given ones.

The figure usually quoted is 0.5% - that is one in 200 people. I think most people will know more than 200 people. Family, friends, colleges, neighbours, partners friends, families and colleges.

I'm part of a hobby group that has approximately 500 members - I don't know them all as friends but I know the vast majority well enough to recognise them in the street, say hello to and to be aware of the couple of middle aged men in that group that now identify as women.

I have never met any of my colleagues children but I am aware that between the 30 or so of us in the office that one has a non-binary daughter and one has a trans child. (I am also aware that both of these children are young adults in same sex relationships who attend universities that are fully captured).

You aren't cis. There is no such thing. Women are all shapes, sizes, belief systems, political opinions, colours, religions, straight, lesbian, bisexual. Some of them even have sex-specific DSDs. Transwomen are not women.

OP is asking questions about sex and gender. Not just about being trans. Trans people often have a very rigid and narrow view on a broad topic which, despite what some trans people say, has a massive impact on most people, not just trans people. If you want unbiased information, don't ask privileged what adult males.

OP, not sure if this was recommended, but have you read or listened to Helen Joyce’s book Trans ? Or Dr Kathleen Stock’s Material Girls. Or Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage for background on what is happening to the young female transitioners.

It might be a good way to read something and then look further. I am sure others will have other recommendations.

My advice is to read widely from different perspectives. Go to original sources, be careful when reading disseminations of that original document, there are plenty of poor quality articles and studies being pushed as revolutionary. (For instance: An American scientific blog post often gets posted on MN as some kind of authoritative work, but it is very poorly argued and evidenced. )

But if I had to recommend just one book, Trans would be it.

I 'just feel like me' too. I'm a cis straight woman but for me what defines me as a woman is simply my body, where as l believe a transgender person defines themselves by their sense of self/gender. I have no body dysmorphia, lm fine with this body, but Ive always disliked being 'gendered' because of it.
I don't actually feel like a woman in a woman's body, I feel more like an 'it' in a woman's body, if that makes sense. I'm pretty sure I'd feel comfortable in a man's body too. I've never really identified as white either but my skin says I am.

So are you saying that like me you identify as a biological woman but not partially as being of female gender? Maybe there's lots of people feel that way but never really analysised things.

There is no such thing as as a 'cis woman'
Women have zero need to 'identity as' anything. They are women because they were born female. There is no special inner gender essence.

To use 'cis woman' implies that there is another type of woman. There isn't, because transwomen belong in the men's category. They are a subset of the male sex class.

Its called body dysmorphia and it’s a mental illness. I’m a woman (adult human female) and I also object to the term ‘cis’.

If you call yourself a ‘cis’ woman then you are saying you are ONLY a woman because you like female gendered (ie stereotyped) things.

I'm a woman because I'm an adult human female. Not because of the interests I have (mostly stereotypically masculine) or because of the clothes I wear (mostly stereotypically feminine because of my body shape).

We are all just people. Our bodies are sexed. We have interests, hobbies, preferences and personalities but none of that changes our sexed bodies.

Many of the female people who identify as trans are doing so to avoid the pitfalls of being a woman (sexual objectification).

Many of the male people who identify as trans are doing so because they are turned on by the sexual element of it.

Others are doing it because they were brought up in homophobic/'traditional' families where stepping out of the gender norms for your sex made parents worry that their offspring would become gay or never find a husband.

The trans movement claims to reject gender stereotypes yet it can only exist through strict adherence to those gendered stereotypes - either those of your own sex (the meaningless term cis); the opposite sex (trans) or (like most people) a mixture of the two (the equally nonsensical non-binary).

In reality, we are all non-binary, gender free, agender whatever you want to call it because none of us adhere strictly to sex based gendered stereotypes.

Unless we have a point to make...

It's an aggressive men's rights movement and, because of this, women's voices are ignored, ridiculed and silenced in it.

I don't know anyone over the age of 25 in the real world who is on board with the current trans position.

Hi op - try typing "Helen Joyce" into you tube and have a listen to some of the many conversations she has been part of. See if what she has to say helps you to understand.

This.

Dunno. Cunt In Situ?

OK, then maybe l'm not a cis woman. I guess that's why it's so complicated because gender is so hard to define as is 'identify'. I describe/define myself as a woman, I have the body of a woman but it's not my 'identity'. I no more identify as a woman as I do having brown eyes. It's the rest of society who labels me and I don't (never have) liked it.

I've started reading the book by Helen Joyce - it's just a preview but I'd quite like an audio book copy.

It's definitely given me lots of food for thought.

Cis is literally just a prefix that is the opposite of the prefix trans. So it’s not a “non term” - it’s just English!

Sex refers to our biological make up, what dna we are born with, whereas gender is more societal and based on how others perceive us.

To be trans means you have (usually) negative emotions surrounding your body image and the way you feel in your body, giving someone the desire and feeling of a need to transition to the opposite sex.
Issues around gender occur from people now wanting to be viewed in a particular way. Some people may not want to be defined as 'feminine' for example and this may eventually lead to them referring to themselves as non-binary.

If you do not have any strong emotions about changing how you are or that there is something different about you then I wouldn't worry. I am also a bisexual women and have wondered the same things as you but not being super girly or liking more masculine activities doesn't mean you're having issues with your gender identity - this is all totally normal!

I have tried to simplify my explanations here so hope it makes sense. I've learnt this from talking with people I've met in the LGBTQ community and also my own research. I do agree with you though that it's hard to learn and I understand why so many people are open minded but scared to learn because of fears of being accused of being offensive!

Cis is literally just a prefix that is the opposite of the prefix trans. So it’s not a “non term” - it’s just English!

Not terms meant to describe people though.
Cis is bullshit. Stop trying to pretend men are a type of woman by telling actual women we must be 'cis'. It's absurd.

Women and transwomen do not belong in the same category, ever. Because they are true opposites due to their sex class which never, ever changes.

Stop calling yourself “cis”. That’s a start.

the what is a woman documentary by matt walsh is on youtube.
towards the end he speaks to a psychologist who says, what people mean by gender is better described by the words temperament and traits.

i thought this a better way of understanding characteristics his view was firmly biology based regarding biological sex but we all have various traits which we associate with a particular sex.
some aspects of this video are well done some a bit cheesy but some good points come from it especially the money involved by drug companies who support this movement.

Gender is made up nonsense dreamed up to keep women in their place. No one is 'cis'.

StopStartStop · 01/01/2023 12:26
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Was that the one where I said there's no such thing as a 'cis woman'? That some people are women and the others are men? Stating a biological fact?

Who told you that?

Or have you just appropriated a term used in Chemistry to refer to humans, not atoms. If a movement cannot survive without the appropriation of already established words and rewriting history, the dishonesty behind it must be clear.

It never was a legitimate use of the prefix.

Woman always meant adult human female and there are no subsets of women that include males.

Any person identifying as the other sex is only ever identifying as their perception of the other sex. A perception that may have many different motivations.

Forcibly changing everyone’s definition of themselves to make yourself (a general yourself) feel better is an act of coercive power.

If you believed the people that sold you the concept that ‘cis’ is just ‘English’, well maybe you should look at why you were/are so keen to believe them .

Stop trying to force others to use the terms of your belief with false facts though.