To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

Really? Four of our friends and family have teenage/twenties daughters who are now transboys/transmen. At least two have had surgery. One of those has a brother who is currently using a female name and a sister who is apparently nonbinary. There’s also one transwoman though we’re not often in touch since the transition broke up the family.

Maybe it’s because we know a lot of scientists and techies, who often tend to be neurodiverse, and that tends to run in families.

If you state that people should be able to present how they like while remaining in their biological sex status, you'll be accused of being a transphobe

Yeah, they should really be accusing those people of being a feminist. At least that would be accurate.

With the greatest respect, you appear to be rubbishing those who are critical of gender ideology without having understood their arguments. If you had taken time to look into their arguments, you would understand why they argue for people being accepting and tolerant of the need for women to have single sex spaces.

Calling people bigoted without first fully understanding their position is surely quite bigoted?

Our sex is why we are oppressed, gender is how we are oppressed

OP you are a woman. And anyone who is not a woman is a man.

No matter what they wear, feel or who they sleep with.

Anything else is a social construct with several variations of motivation and purpose.

That’s not what I meant at all. As usual you can’t say anything about this without people jumping on you!

The point I was making - and you’ve managed to illustrate so well in your reply - is that here we have someone openly asking a question, which actually - whatever you think about all these issues- is a good way to openly discuss things with someone who clearly hasn’t made their mind up yet. And yet that poster is shot down immediately by people saying “well you’ve lost me at cis” What good does that do anyone? It’s just shutting down discussion. That’s what I meant by aggressive. There’s no need for it and it actually damages the debate because it makes people look ridiculous.

Calling themselves cis did rather suggest that they do know what gender and therefore transgender must be

Which given the amount of fake innocents that we get will make people suspicious

The OP has made it clear however that it was a misunderstanding on her part

Ok, so playing devils advocate- if you don’t believe in gender stereotypes (good) then why are you so sure you identify as a woman? (I’m asking that a little bit cheekily because clearly you do, as do I). So you wouldn’t be happy with someone referring to you as a “he” or “they / them” because you are a woman, you know you’re a woman

I don't identify as a woman any more than I identify as 5'2" or Caucasian. I'm of the female sex, I'm a human being, and I'm above the age of majority. These aren't things I've identified into, this is just material reality.

If someone calls me he/they then it might be vaguely irritating but it's not something I'm going to get too het up about. It doesn't negate the fact I'm an adult human female.

I think on other threads you have made your own prejudices about regular MN feminist posters pretty clear actually.

Or are your constant shaming posts not designed the silence, or at least shape, discussion to suit your own needs?

But would any child 'feel female' or 'feel male' . I'm sure DC just feel like them. DD is into lots of stereotypical boy stuff. DS is more caring and soft.
Both are totally normal.
I think they are fed so much garbage about what they should like / do / wear it makes them think they aren't in the right box

Your first issue is assuming that all trans people want to change sex because they feel like a member of the opposite sex. Although TRAs actively push this one reason approach, there are many reasons people claim to be trans. This is a disservice to everyone (except the people who are pushing this idea). In truth the closest a trans person can get to feeling like a woman, is to not feel like their stereotype of a man. There is not a feeling of being a woman, we are individuals- in short feeling like a woman can only ever be a stereotype which is usually harmful to women (CIs is superfluous)

the trans community are 0.03% of the UK population- yet they want the whole of society to be shaped to their needs even where it overrides the needs of 51%.

If I don’t agree with something I will say it. My views on trans are actually far more complicated than people want them to be. I am actually somewhere in the middle with it all and I am learning by reading other peoples posts just as people are reading mine. That’s what happens in a forum. I am not prejudiced against any particular posters. What I don’t like is regular posters ganging up on me - and others who dare to have a slightly different viewpoint- and effectively laughing at me by just spamming phrases or giggling between themselves as if were all some uneducated idiots. And I will call people out on that, because it’s bullying.

I am not trying to shape the discussion to my own needs. In fact I don’t have any needs. I am a middle aged, mum of 2, long time married. I just see a lot of hatred in a lot of posts here towards people who aren’t deserving of it and I don’t like it. That’s it.

Ok, so playing devils advocate- if you don’t believe in gender stereotypes (good) then why are you so sure you identify as a woman? (I’m asking that a little bit cheekily because clearly you do, as do I).

I don't think many (actual) women would say they 'identify' as a woman. They, like me, would say they are a woman. Generally it's only people who factually, categorically and provably aren't something who feel the need to identify as it.

Aa someone saidon a thread the other day:
In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

Yet your posts on another thread are littered with disparaging remarks about the MN FWR board.

No you are not targeting posters and I did not say that. However your posts about ‘shutting down’ discussion here look hypocritical in light of your posts elsewhere which can only be read as an attempt to shame posters.

I am not trying to shape the discussion to my own needs

OK. But your posts come across very much like those who aim to tone police, which we see very regularly.

I just see a lot of hatred in a lot of posts here towards people who aren’t deserving of it and I don’t like it.

Hatred? Please report any hatred you see. It will be quickly deleted.

If you interpret discussion as hatred and it is merely robust discussion that you don’t like, the posts will stand. And that might be an indication that your interpretation is prejudiced not the intention of the poster.

You are reading all posts as though they are written by a single poster.

What you are 'calling out' is any number of individual posters who disagree with you.

What you are labelling 'hatred' is seen by others as women saying no and insisting on logic over emotions.

I have reported posts - on this thread as well as others- and they have been deleted. So I’m clearly not being over sensitive.

And yep - that’s me- Afterfire. I name changed. No real reason.

@belowfrozen - definitely all the stereotypes fed to kids don't help them understand themselves. I do wish, for example, people working in shops where people buy stuff for kids were trained not to steer parents or children towards certain things by gender, which people slip into doing really easily ('Oh, I think you'll be wanting boys' ones' etc)

No, I don’t care if people disagree with me. At all.

I don’t like people telling me I’m uneducated because I have a different view point. Or basically just spamming their username at me which is what happened elsewhere. How is that helpful to anyone?

I like discussing things and I’ve actually learnt a lot from reading various threads. The point I’m making is if people keep being so rude to others as they were to me then it just makes me feel so angry I can’t even be bothered to listen to an alternative viewpoint, which is a shame.

Excellent. Then moderation is working.

By the way, those posts were not from posters who post regularly on the FWR board. I have not seen those posters before.

But then we regularly also see posters who post to screenshot to put on twitter and other social media platforms. if you read threads regularly on the FWR board you would know this happens pretty regularly.

Keep up the reporting, thanks.

I suspect I am predisposed to dismiss some of what you say as your SM language is different to mine - 'calling out' is a phrase I don't understand.

Maybe you have similar issues with the way others express themselves, missing information because of it?!

what we are actually doing is showing how to be transgender without needing to be changed in any way , no damaging treatments, without the need to make a song and dance over it , without being special in any way

If it was just that, people could present any way they like without having to have a gender label for it. No problem. When people adopt the label of a gender that doesn't match their biological sex and use that to gain access to or advantages from things reserved for that sex, then there is a problem.

“Or basically just spamming their username at me which is what happened elsewhere. How is that helpful to anyone?”

spamming? Or asking questions and raising issues with your posts?

How is that helpful? It is helpful because readers see the discussion develop from both sides. And they can see the motivations of each poster, follow each link to read for themselves and to make their own decisions.

Without the emotional manipulation tactics of being ‘kind’. You can rail against people you believe are ‘not being kind’ to you or to others and you can choose who to engage with. That is absolutely fine.