To have questions about sex/gender

[Stereotypicallyconfused]

N/C for obvious reasons as likely to get called transphobic but genuinely just confused & want to understand.

I'm a cis woman & therefore clearly have no understanding of what it feels like to be trans & it's hard to have a conversation with people about it. Firstly, I don't think trans people should have to put in the emotional labour to explain (but equally I don't know how you get to understand without having conversations) and secondly, having questions inevitably gets you labelled as a bigot.

I've never questioned what it feels like to be a woman. I just feel like me & I've never thought that how I feel is defined by my sex. I like things that are stereotypically male pursuits & dislike things that are stereotypically female pursuits (and equally vice versa). I'm bisexual so don't fit the "norm" in that respect either.

I feel like wanting to change your gender plays into the gender stereotypes moreso than if you just lived how you wanted to live (wore what you want, liked what you want etc). If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

I know several trans people and obviously respect their pronouns and treat them with the same respect and kindness I would anyone I know. Regardless of the fact I don't understand.

I actually never go on the FWR board so I actually have no idea whatsoever who is a regular poster and who isn’t. I only recognise a couple of names here and there across the forum as a whole who in one particular thread seemed to be laughing at me. And that’s horrible. I don’t deserve that. Sure, maybe they’re right and I don’t know all the ins and outs of every single reference / essay / legislation etc - I admit that readily. But I’m not an illiterate idiot and I do have, like everyone here, an opinion and I don’t deserve to be jumped on for that.

Generally I’m busy supporting people with chronic health issues (mainly on groups elsewhere) as that’s my “area” - I have lots of autoimmune issues and that’s my real interest.

I just waded into some of these threads really because my dd has a lot of trans friends and knowing them the way I do I’ve become interested in the discussion as a whole. My views are changing and being challenged all the time and that’s ok, that’s what I’m here for!

By “calling out” I meant saying something isn’t okay. That’s all.

Prolly should ask trans people about this, Mumsnet isn't exactly the best source for unbiased information on the trans community.

I think transexuals tend more towards body dysmorphia, a feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, rather than anything to do with a “feeling” or being more manly or womanly, and nothing to do with attire, interests or hobbies, or even sexual orientation, although cumulatively it probably all contributes towards concluding it may be more ideal to change the body they grew up in.

Transvestites tend more towards fetishizing attire as an expression, but there are people who fall in between who manage to find comfort in living somewhere in between the two, without full surgery and hormones.

“I actually never go on the FWR board so I actually have no idea whatsoever who is a regular poster and who isn’t”.

So you went onto a board that you have not been on before and posted things like:

“Mumsnet has such a weird stance on all this stuff and it just isn’t reflected (thankfully) in real life.”

and

“I’m so grateful that the real world (ie not Mumsnet) is more progressive and rational.”

and

”Everyone on Mumsnet is so quick to be offended by everything and to think the worst of everyone.” (rather hypocritical considering the earlier posts)

and

“I think it’s really sad the amount of transphobia on Mumsnet. It is the one aspect of the site that really lets itself down.” (and yet transphobia is not tolerated on MN and is quickly deleted… so where did you get this idea from ?)

I wasn’t looking hard, so I might have missed some snide and disparaging remarks that clearly show a prejudice.

But these are your posts, no?

And you expect people to engage with you gently when you post this?

See, like this.

Prolly.

Meaningless and yet I am supposed to ignore that and take anything written after it as having some meaning.

Tough! First impressions count and that's simply daft!

I understand the concept of gender dysphoria and understand why counselling, hormones and surgery might be the right path for some people with gender dysphoria.

What I don't understand is the sudden increase in male both people deciding that being a woman is a series of sexist stereotypes that seem to correspond to how men think women should be (eg dresses, high heels, make up, handbags, being weak, playing helpless) but also wanting to keep their fully functioning male anatomy, whilst pushing children down questionable medical pathways.
I also find it hard to reconcile the idea that someone can claim they know they are a woman because of womanly feelings, whilst displaying threatening male-pattern violence and hatred towards women.

i don’t wish to insult you, but I find this hard to believe. The head of disguise at the CIA says that they have sometimes been able to disguise women to pass as men, but never men to pass as women.

Even after hormone treatment and surgery, the configuration of male bodies is starkly different to women ( not to mention size, not just height, but limb length and hand and foot size). The voice, even after training is of a different resonance and tone.

By the way, if you stuck around and actually engaged without the snide disparaging remarks aimed at MN FWR board (because that was were you were posting), you would realise that many of us have trans loved ones in our daily life.

You constant call for kindness do have consequences. Particularly if you are using pronouns for children and teens that are under treatment programs that unless you know the family well, you may not know.

This is indeed a very complex issue and not one that is solved by ‘being kind’ all the time. And often, being kind for trans people is not actually being kind for children and all female people.

Coming back to the OP:

If there's no intention of ever fully transitioning (I know people that aren't) then I don't understand why you need to say you're the opposite gender. Surely you're just you?!

This isn't really about trans people. This is people saying they're the opposite sex because they can.

And based on that, they expect imagined compliance from everyone else.

And an expectation that they can be afforded the same rights in law as women do, which is safeguarding based on their sex and vulnerability to male violence and rape, pregnancy and specific medical needs, sometimes relating to their religion.

You do understand it. And it isn't right.

What is a CIS woman?

”it isn’t always as obvious to tell as people think it is.”

So ‘you’ cannot tell a male person, one without having their puberty blocked, from a female after seeing them up close, and as they move and talk?

Please don’t tell other women what they can and cannot perceive. There are many cues.

-This isn't really about trans people. Except it is as apparently you can just declare your self trans.

Because for those men it is AGP - a fetish. Part of that fetish is identifying as something they see as lesser (women). Children are useful to hide their fetish behind.

For those with gender dysphoria where proper research is carried out hormones and surgery have not been found to offer benefit in the longer term. This is unsurprising when you look at similar conditions such as body dysmorphia or OCD - ‘giving in’ to compulsions feels good in the short term but ultimately embed the condition and make it worse. This is heightened by the environment surround trans - celebration of being trans, of each further step, of feeling part of the cool gang.

Indeed Lola.

A trans person can only ever identify as what they personally perceive that identity would feel/present as.

There is absolutely no evidence that males lose their propensity to commit sex crimes at a rate less than other males. It could be higher if prison stats were taken at face value.

That is why safeguarding for all female people and for children needs to be robust and non discriminatory.

When particular males show you (general you) who they are, in their ignoring boundaries and their violent protests, we have to believe them.

@Echobelly I think gender marketing is a massive issue re kids. Tells them from a very very young age what they should like. My DD rejected it all and only as a teen became more girly.
She never questioned her gender as I never made her confirm. She loves all 'male' hobbies & sports.
She knows several trans kids but I am baffled why they all think they are trans suddenly at age 12/13
(Maybe one but not as many as we see)

Personally, I just look down and see a vagina and think ah yes I am a woman.

No male person can know what it feels like to be a woman and no female person can know what it feels like to be a man.

Yes I said those things. I was angry. Sometimes I do come across posts about trans issues, sometimes I click on threads not really paying attention to which section they’re in, and I do see comments like those I was referring to and they make me annoyed. I have been told - in return - that I am “femphobic” and a “neglectful” parent because I said that I would go along with referring to my child by whichever pronouns they wish. That made me angry. You might not agree with me but I’m not a neglectful parent.

And there IS a lot of transphobia on Mumsnet. If I say that I get accused of not defending women and children’s rights.

I’m not expecting people to engage with me gently. I’m here replying and not hiding away am I? I don’t expect to be insulted or ridiculed though.

She knows several trans kids but I am baffled why they all think they are trans suddenly at age 12/13

This is down to what they are seeing on the internet, what they are taught in school, the need to have something ‘special’ in order to be accepted by their peers, wanting to escape from rigid gendered expectations, and, for girls, wanting to escape the sexualisation of their bodies imposed on them by porn-riddled society.

Kids get a lot of extra special attention if they're "trans."

Ok. I am adult human female. Based on that I'd say I am a woman, but I don't identify myself with feminine stereotypes and I never understood what the inner self of womanhood some people including males are referring to should be, so I probably don't share the same identity as them, and they don't share my identity with me. I'm definitely not a man, I don't have male body and I don't want people to talk about me as if I had one.

If it makes me trans by your definition, I should start voicing my trans voice and say that trans comes in many ways, so many ways that it renders whole concept of gender identity totally irrelevant and not worth mentioning anymore. I can say that many of "us, trans people" support single sex spaces, single sex sports, sex based reporting. I still see value in talking about gendered socialisation, but I see the value only on statistical scale. Individual identity is irrelevant, dress as you wish, choose a job and hobbies you like, respect sex-based division when relevant and get on with life...
And anyone who disagree with me is being transphobic :)

It’s not even about being kind. It’s about not just shouting someone down with things like “you’ve lost me at cis” when someone asks about something. I don’t really want people to be kind to me for the sake of it. I know it’s a complex issue, and I can be just as much of an arse as the next person.

I feel I’ve derailed the thread and I apologise for that.

I just think sometimes it can be so unbalanced here in terms of a range of views about this and I think it tends to feel like people like me who are somewhere in the middle get shouted down and told to get back in their box.

In our case one child has been identifying as the other gender for some years. But the rest suddenly became trans at Yr7/8. Previously no mention.
One of the girls has always had just girls as mates, was into girly stuff etc Then announces she's actually a boy when she goes to high school. Uses a boys name at school etc but her parents refuse to entertain it. She also still only hangs out with all the girls.

I can see this being a plus for some that we know.

“I just think sometimes it can be so unbalanced here in terms of a range of views about this and I think it tends to feel like people like me who are somewhere in the middle get shouted down and told to get back in their box.”

If you actually spent time on the board you denigrated yesterday, maybe you would indeed understand that if you are ‘somewhere in the middle’, you would find others agreeing with you.

Instead, you seem to want to portray reasonable views as extreme and in the minority.

And again, many of us have trans loved ones in our daily lives. And are dealing every single day with the impacts and ramifications of ideological beliefs and constant calls to ‘be kind’, ‘there is no harm’ and all the other calls for kindness that you and other posters make.

I take your point. I suppose if someone is calling you uneducated, neglectful and spamming your posts shouting “klaxon…” with others then joining in and all that it makes you a bit angry and more extreme in your own replies. No one likes to feel they’re being laughed at.

I am being less extreme now because we are engaging with each other respectfully. Which is the point I was trying to make about people saying “you lost me at cis”.