To not want to meet with children there.

[Ger1atricMillennial]

AIBU to want to meet with my friend without her children there?

I live in a foreign country and have been very isolated since moving and during the pandemic I went on medication for depression and worked through it with therapy. I have been off it for 9 months and the therapy has helped me move forward and I feel so much better.

One of my closest friends from high school has family in the place that I live, and has come over during the rest of her maternity leave. We have been close in the past, but in the last few years the contact has got less frequent- no doubt due to the distance + life. However; over the last few years everytime we speak on the phone her toddler interrupts or throws a tantrum, and a few times I was on speakerphone and I didn't know and her husband and mum were in the room. This was when I wasn't very well, so I lost some trust there.

Since my friend has arrived I have met up with her twice; both times she had her toddler and breastfeeding baby. As you can imagine it has been very hard to have any meaningful converstation with her and after both times I have just felt so lonely and unimportant afterwards.

She offered to meet up for brunch, but when I asked if she was bringing her children (more specifically the toddler)- she said most likely. I then declined stating that I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children. That was 2 days ago and I haven't recieved a reply.

I really felt the loss yesterday and cried alot. I understand her bringing the baby and would be more supportive if she was a single mum, but her husband and his family are here and they love spending time with the children. I am also a little bit sensitive to the fact that if I was a man I wouldn't even have to think about this problem at all if I asked to meet with my friend.

At this stage I wouldn't feel comfortable disucssing the above with my friend directly. I think she may be struggling alot more that she is letting on and adding to it would make it worse or she just wouldn't be able to engage. But since I can't speak to her in any meanginful way; I don't know this for sure.

So as I dont have children; can you tell me if this is ones of those things that against the laws of nature and is outrageous for me to think about asking her; or is it her personal choice and has anyone actually navigated this situation successfully before?

I am over the emotional part of the loss, so be as honest and direct as you like with your feedback.

why can’t the toddler be left with their dad?

I’m sure he could be. But families generally work best as a unit. When my kids were that age, it was hard work flying solo and weekend time was precious. So - for both of us - “me time” was something special and reserved for special occasions and things that couldn’t be done with the kids in tow. Because leaving the toddler with his dad to meet her means that she won’t have time to get out on her own to the gym/hairdresser or whatever. And probably means that (quite understandably) the toddler’s dad will also want a couple of hours to go to the gym/meet a mate or whatever. And then that’s a whole day of the weekend gone. So maybe the OP’s friend thinks that’s a bit of a waste when she could just pop out for brunch and take the kids with her, thereby obviating the need to express, sort bottles or whatever as well.

@SundaySundaySunday

if that’s the case then OP’s pal just needs to own that, and not use her kids as an excuse

@LuckySantangelo35 why can’t the toddler be left with their dad?

No one said the toddler “can’t be left” though. This particular woman doesn’t want to leave them in order to meet child free with the OP, that’s her choice.

She doesn't need to own anything. She has met the OP under circumstances which suit her

It's now down to OP to own whether or not she wants to continue this friendship based on what the other woman is offering

I have a friend who always brings her 4 year old without fail if I suggest meeting for lunch and it's slightly irritating tbh especially when her DH is at home doing nothing.

This is the nub of it, though. If her DH is at home doing nothing, then he’s enjoying himself. That’s downtime for him and a net benefit. Looking after a 4 year old is not downtime for him and therefore creates an imposition for him. (Same as he creates an imposition for your friend if he’s off cycling/pub or whatever.). So your friend gets to see you, her DH gets some downtime - and then they both get more family time over the weekend. She probably sees this as far more efficient.

Not really. I lone parent so mine is always with me, but on a really, really rare day, when she at preschool and I have a day off uni I will get a few hours to myself. And I value them highly to do things for me. I therefore wouldn't be impressed if someone expected me to give them up because they have an issue with my kid.

I guess though it’s what you have to do sometimes when you have kids in order to maintain friendships? Put yourself out a bit? (Obviously child free friends to do the same)

otherwise the risk would be that your kids grow up and you suddenly find yourself lonely with no pals and that would be awful

That's why I'm create a functioning "village" with people who understand. Mums who you can text apologising for not responding 3 weeks ago and who you'll make plans with 6 months in the future.

I get it, 100%. You’re friends with her, not the kids, and it completely changes the dynamic and the conversation if kids are there. I find it especially annoying when people say they’re bringing the baby/toddler in a way that suggests it’s a treat for you. No. Leave the kids at home and have a life beyond.

@Bigbadfish
yeah I guess there’s always mum friends who will understand

For a while there is no life beyond them. Especially on Mat leave.

There is light at the end of the tunnel and it does eventually end. But where she is now they are extentions of her. And she may love that. It doesn't always have to be negative.

@Bigbadfish

it could also be why rates of PND are so high

To be honest I didn't think you need to worry about it anymore. Think you have lost her has a friend now

Yea, it would be nice if those around the mother embraced natural and biological normalcy and had zero expectations on separating her from her young children. But such is the society we live in.

I would prefer if we looked towards places where the "village" was still a very real thing.

@Bigbadfish

but sometimes mums wants to be separated from their young kids.

To go for a run, or to meet a pal, or go for their hair doing, etc etc. Just to feel like themselves again and not just a mum. And that’s fine and and normal and ok too and should be facilitated by those around them.

every woman is different

the assumption that women want to be with their babies and kids 24/7 is a generalisation and not helpful

And then they can arrange that.
But for whatever reason that is for her, this mother comes with 2 kids.

So who needs this friendship more? Because I don't think it's the mum.

I think therapy can be a wonderful thing, but one potential risk with it is that it can encourage some people to forget that other people have their own complexes / neuroses / difficulties / circumstances that are just as real as yours are to you.

OP, in the kindest way, your friend has become a mum to two in recent years. This alters your whole sense of self and priorities. She won't even be thinking about 'her issues.' You don't really think about yourself when you become a mum. Unless you are totally debilitated by PND or something, you are not dwelling on your own issues / needs, but just responding and getting in with it. You don't really have headspace to ponder much more.

It's a fair point that the DH could have the toddler for a few hours. But, for whatever reason, maybe it's not as simple as that for her at the moment. Who knows why? Maybe the DH is useless and she just doesn't have the energy to challenge that at the moment? Maybe she has her own anxiety right now, just as you had yours?

When you have young kids, it can be difficult to have 'proper' conversations with adults anyway. This is where she's at right now probably - her new normal. It won't just be you. Even if her toddler is left with the DH, she might feel anxious or distracted.

Also, when you do get 'me time' as a new mum, you crave headspace. Silence. The last thing you need is to feel beholden to someone else wanting to be 'heard.' You are emotionally burnt out as it is.

She won't always be like this and I'm sure, as time goes on, she'll be able to leave the kids with the DH or whoever. But at this moment, she doesn't need to feel 'judgement' and probably doesn't have the capacity for you to emotionally offload on her. Even if you are interested to hear how she 'really is' (as I'm sure you are) she is probably too overwhelmed / exhausted to even think about herself or identify how she even feels.

Her priority now is her baby and toddler. It isn't going out with you to adults venue's or for lunch. If u are smart you will go with what she can do and wait. Her lifestyle will change as the kids grow up.

@Bigbadfish

it might be the mum once the kids are a bit older
but by that point op may not be around

I think it's likely it feels to her like another chore at a time when she's possibly already overwhelmed, especially if, from your most recent interactions, (1) you've made it clear you're lonely, depressed and isolated, and that you want a 'meaningful' one-on-one meeting, and (2) are already feeling hard done by that she isn't prioritising you, and possibly making that obvious.

Maybe maternity leave overseas with a toddler and a BF baby and her DH's family isn't entirely straightforward, either.

I've always seen my friends, even with a high-needs baby and PND, but while I might move heaven and earth to make a meeting with a friend that was likely to be energising and fun, if I didn't have a lot of bandwidth to spare, I might hesitate to spend precious solo time on an interaction with someone I felt was pressuring me reproachfully into doing something she wanted, and which was likely to involve a focus on her problems.

I don't think the friend cares very much.

They live how far apart? OP is going through something which requires a lot of emotional output while being a mum is draining enough.

If you want to still be friends in ten years down the line, you have to be prepared to meet up with her with her kids there just now while they’re so small. In ten years she’ll be through the other side and will meet without the kids. Unless you have kids by then and you’ll be meeting with your kids ha ha.

The OP isn’t really a true friend then, just a friend of convenience. A good friend understands the ebbs and flows of life, a different times we are all able to give different amounts to those around us. That might be due to very young children, a long term illness etc. To immediately cut a friend off because they don’t give you exactly what you want when you want it, regardless of what is going on in their life is not the sign of true friendship imo.

Her interpretation? "Oh god the OP wants MORE from me. What I've been able to do isn't good enough. Can't do it so won't reply."

@GGer1atricMillennial I don't think it's unreasonable to ask to meet up without the toddler but as others have said it depends how you do it - given your friend's situation (i.e. mum of small kids) you just need to adjust your expectations and accept her priorities are different now. She will have so many more demands being made on her and her time so any perceived lack of flexibility on your part (re. whether or not she's able to arrange care for toddler during your meet-up) is likely to just stress her out or piss her off. Also her DH may appear great on the surface but not be pulling his weight, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors, so that could contribute to her not wanting or being able to leave DC at home (with the BF baby not all babies take a bottle and she may find it stressful to leave them so YABU on that one).

I have a good friend who has ended up being the only one in our group without DC and we are still close, what makes it work is understanding on both sides - she realises I may or may not have to bring DS to coffee dates depending on my schedule, and I accept it's probably annoying for her to have our conversations interrupted constantly on the days when he is with us (as annoying as it is for me too) and I make an effort to see her without DS as and when I can. But if she was pushy or demanding about me not bringing him I wouldn't take to that well because it would just stress me out, and definitely wouldn't have worked while DS was breastfeeding. The way my friend phrases it is usually something like: "It would be lovely to catch up just the two of us but also understand if you need to bring DS."

From your earlier post:

"I just want to meet her because she is my friend and we like talking to each other and I care about how she is getting on."

Tell her this! There's no reason to lose the friendship, just try and be understanding of the demands on her right now and hopefully if she is a good friend she will reciprocate and make time for you when she can.