To not want to meet with children there.

[Ger1atricMillennial]

AIBU to want to meet with my friend without her children there?

I live in a foreign country and have been very isolated since moving and during the pandemic I went on medication for depression and worked through it with therapy. I have been off it for 9 months and the therapy has helped me move forward and I feel so much better.

One of my closest friends from high school has family in the place that I live, and has come over during the rest of her maternity leave. We have been close in the past, but in the last few years the contact has got less frequent- no doubt due to the distance + life. However; over the last few years everytime we speak on the phone her toddler interrupts or throws a tantrum, and a few times I was on speakerphone and I didn't know and her husband and mum were in the room. This was when I wasn't very well, so I lost some trust there.

Since my friend has arrived I have met up with her twice; both times she had her toddler and breastfeeding baby. As you can imagine it has been very hard to have any meaningful converstation with her and after both times I have just felt so lonely and unimportant afterwards.

She offered to meet up for brunch, but when I asked if she was bringing her children (more specifically the toddler)- she said most likely. I then declined stating that I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children. That was 2 days ago and I haven't recieved a reply.

I really felt the loss yesterday and cried alot. I understand her bringing the baby and would be more supportive if she was a single mum, but her husband and his family are here and they love spending time with the children. I am also a little bit sensitive to the fact that if I was a man I wouldn't even have to think about this problem at all if I asked to meet with my friend.

At this stage I wouldn't feel comfortable disucssing the above with my friend directly. I think she may be struggling alot more that she is letting on and adding to it would make it worse or she just wouldn't be able to engage. But since I can't speak to her in any meanginful way; I don't know this for sure.

So as I dont have children; can you tell me if this is ones of those things that against the laws of nature and is outrageous for me to think about asking her; or is it her personal choice and has anyone actually navigated this situation successfully before?

I am over the emotional part of the loss, so be as honest and direct as you like with your feedback.

She's on maternity leave with a baby and a toddler. If you have problems being around her and her children it is fine for you not to meet up with her - she probably will not notice or care due to all the other shit she is up to her eyes in right now.

This was two days ago and you're crying? Not two months / years?

I imagine she feels pretty crappy that you don't appreciate her responsibilities to her children. Especially a breastfed baby. What do you expect her to do with them? What if her baby needs to be fed?

The friend surely gets to choose which friendships she wants to maintain and at what level. It's possible she's picked up in this instance it's not a reciprocal friendly meet up and she's wanting to avoid an hour of being talked at and unofficial counselling but still wants to see op?

Some breastfed babies can be left.
Some can't.
I had three, one could have been left for 90 minutes with a little planning. She fed pretty regularly and took a lot in so then could go for a couple of hours from early days.
Then I had #2. She had no rhyme nor reason. I certainly couldn't have planned to leave her because it depended on the day. She even as a tiny baby would only eat when she wanted to, might then only take a little bit and need more 20 minutes later... Or she might go 8 hours without food. There was no way of knowing from day to day.

My third had ear infections from 10 weeks old (we're talking about every 10 days) where breastfeeding was the only way to comfort him, so again I would not have planned to leave him.

Tbh if with #2 I'd got a text saying "when you're ready to leave..." I was exhausted, stressed and there seemed no end in sight. So I'd have thought to myself "in about 1 years time" and not responded.

Just to add to the conversation, since having a child I do not want to sit and listen to people offloading for an hour. I just can't do it. I have to be emotionally available at all hours for my child. I can't do that for everyone around me as it's completely draining. If she has "an hour off" there may be other things she wants to do with it - no offence OP.
Prior to having children, I'd sit and listen to people offload for hours. Now, I'll listen for a while. If it's a 2 way conversation the they have my attention for a long time. If its entirely them dumping emotional baggage on to me, I can only do it for about 15 minutes, then I have to change subject for my own sanity. Otherwise I won't want to see them again next time. That's not be being horrible, it's me looking out for my me tal health so I can continue to provide for my child, who is my priority.

I have a childless best friend. She is the only childless friend I have retained since having children, although most also have kids.
If she wants to have a serious conversation, she generally suggests going somewhere where my toddler will be otherwise entertained (age appropriate soft play) and understands I'll be keeping an eye on them. Or she will invite us round, buy a little activity for DD to do (I have never asked her to do this). If we go out together, she has always understood that DD has to be factored in. She doesn't love other people's children but she has never complained about doing this and never made me feel put out. Because of this, when I am able to snag a child free hour, I would always see if I could spend it with her. DD is 3 for perspective.

I noticed a real divide amongst my child-free friends when I became a mum.

One friend always asked about my baby and included her when planning lunches out or meet ups. She really showed an interest, and seemed to love being with my DD (I’m sure it wasn’t the most fun experience for her, but it meant a lot that she made such an effort!)

Another friend on the other hand, didn’t seem to understand just how tired I was and how all-consuming motherhood was for me. She would often call me at 3 am, drunk after a night out, wanting to talk about some guy she was seeing. She also wanted to go on holidays, just me and her, and couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t just leave my baby behind with her dad for 4 days. It was exhausting and I had to take a step back from the friendship.

OP, if you want to maintain this friendship, you really need to back off and stop expecting so much from her. She is likely to be exhausted and overwhelmed, and a friend like you is probably the last thing she needs right now. Show her some support and love and understanding, it will mean a lot to her and will bode well for the future.

She very well might not be able to leave her kids. I have zero free time, as one of mine has SEN. We come as a team, and if my friends want to ditch me on that account I will gladly wave them off - their loss.

I agree with @Hooverthestairs point- when you have small children, you already have people using you and draining you and talking at you and relying on you and needing you for everything. Sometimes you just don't have the bandwidth to be there for friends in the same way.

I saw you see a psychologist, which is great. I assume you aren't just talking at her like a free therapist. But your OP does sound like she's a fairly crucial part of how you plan to manage emotionally in your new country. Have you spoken with her about this? Is she up for being there for you in that way? Maybe it's too much.

I prefer to see friends without my kids. But there's only so much time in the week. If her DH works all week, then they only have weekends together. Two days to spend ass a family, she might want the family time, not to drop the kids and run off. But let's assume she does want some 'me time' without the kids- her husband might want the same. So they get one day on the weekend each, and a lot less family time. She might want to see other friends, or finally get her hair done, or exercise, or read a book alone. People think women on mat leave have all the time in the world but it's not true.

If you want to see the friend, maybe invite her to your home and give the toddler snacks and an activity to keep them occupied?

Requesting she find childcare is actually asking quite a lot, and she may find that it's all too much for her right now. If you value the friendship, think about her needs as well and make it easier for her.

What do you mean by 'adult venue'? Like a bar?

If you'd have asked me to go out at night to a bar when I had a toddler and a small baby I would have looked at you like you'd grown a second head.

I needed sleep, not a night out. She's probably up and down feeding the baby all night only to have the toddler demanding it's breakfast at 6am.

You're not rude or unreasonable in the slightest. Kids put a real downer on meetings between adults.
Playdates are fine but if I am going out for adult conversation and a nice lunch I don't want to have to interact with a toddler. Newborn baby ok...that is unavoidable.
I speak as someone with a four year old and a two year old. I wouldn't dream of foisting them on a lunch meet up, especially with a childless friend.

A voice of reason!

No, sometimes you just can't. At times my children have been a package with me. This is what I signed up for. Their care and needs came before others.

I don't think you've been rude at all; it was actually rude of her to turn up every time you arranged to meet previously with her kids without telling you that she would be bringing them!

I think you're just at a two different places in life at the moment. I'm not sure the friendship will survive it, I think the physical distance that you've created by moving so far away, and the emotional distance that she's created by being so offhand and dismissive with your and your feelings doesn't bode well for it. Personally I think you should try to make friends in your new home instead, and maybe just leave this one.

I've moved many times to new places and also cut ties with people due to various circumstances before; it does get easier as time moves on.

YANBU. Unfortunately there are parents who still make time for their friends and there are parents who refuse to, usually on the grounds that their kids take priority over absolutely everything else in their life. My experience is that the latter will continue on doing the things they want to do, but use the kids as an excuse not to do anything they don’t.

I’m sorry that posters here have been so absorbed in their own maternal status that they’ve been unkind about your mental health, too. If you were a new mum then your MH would be highly important (and any self-absorption highly justifiable) so it’s more double standards, unfortunately. I hope that you’re OK and do feel free to PM me if you need any support.

My advice? Get new (childless) friends. This one will likely emerge blinking when children are 10 and wonder why she has no friends left.

@Bigbadfish

absolutely if you’re a single parent

but OP’s friend isn’t a single parent, she has a partner - the kids father- present and available. He could look after the kids.

why should the bulk of parenting and sacrificing of friendships be always left to the mother?! That’s the bit I don’t get. Can you explain?

I would never ask a friend with young children to specifically leave them at home. Their children are (quite rightly) their priority.

No, even when you're not. Because a BF can't always be serrated from their mother. And their in a foreign country so there are many number of ways a toddler may not want to be away from mum.

The reality is she didn't leave them and that's her business. What effort has the OP put in in the last 3 years?

@WhatALotOfAFussAboutNothing

But why can’t their dad look after the toddler?

Yup I have tried to coax her out to an adult venue but she just looks at me at says I can't.

But this is analogous to the threads you see on here where someone’s friend has said that they can’t come to a destination wedding in Thailand because they can’t afford it - and the bride is seething because they’ve bought a new car and gone to Center Parcs. Obviously they could’ve gone if they decided to forego a family holiday and drive their old car for another couple of years…..but they chose not to. They had different priorities for their money and put what worked for their own family over what suited a friend. And this is a little like that. Yes - in extremis, of course she could leave the kids with her husband for an hour and come to an over 21s bar with you. But (for various reasons that have been outlined on this thread) she doesn’t want to. It doesn’t suit her or her family set up at the moment. So your insistence that she meets you on your terms, which potentially involves hassle for both her and her DH, is a bit unreasonable when she’s agreed to come out and have brunch with you.

@Bigbadfish

ok take the breast feeding baby out of the equation.

why can’t the toddler be left with their dad?

The thing is you don’t to meet with her child free for the friendship or quality time, you just want it to benefit you more. You want her undivided attention while you rant and complain about your life to her. It seems more likely that she doesn’t want to spend a rare baby free break while on maternity like that and I can’t blame her.
It comes across as very me me me.

You are assuming OP’s friend is keen to meet, when maybe she just isn’t that keen 🤷🏻‍♀️

Meeting up with OP sounds quite draining to be honest. Personally I would rather be with my kids than listen to a friend talking about their poor mental health for a couple of hours.

Separation anxiety? He was busy? She didn't want to be separated from him?
They had something to do afterwards?

The Op specifically said without children, not without the toddler, so saying the friend can leave the toddler is not really relevant.
I suspect if she'd asked for the toddler only to be left behind, then she'd have had a different response on here and potentially from her friend too.

I have kids and if a friend asked me if I wanted to meet for brunch I would definitely leave the kids with DH.
With a toddler it's almost impossible to have a meaningful conversation with anyone plus I enjoy the child free time.
I can understand her bringing the baby especially if she is BF.
I have a friend who always brings her 4 year old without fail if I suggest meeting for lunch and it's slightly irritating tbh especially when her DH is at home doing nothing.