To not want to meet with children there.

[Ger1atricMillennial]

AIBU to want to meet with my friend without her children there?

I live in a foreign country and have been very isolated since moving and during the pandemic I went on medication for depression and worked through it with therapy. I have been off it for 9 months and the therapy has helped me move forward and I feel so much better.

One of my closest friends from high school has family in the place that I live, and has come over during the rest of her maternity leave. We have been close in the past, but in the last few years the contact has got less frequent- no doubt due to the distance + life. However; over the last few years everytime we speak on the phone her toddler interrupts or throws a tantrum, and a few times I was on speakerphone and I didn't know and her husband and mum were in the room. This was when I wasn't very well, so I lost some trust there.

Since my friend has arrived I have met up with her twice; both times she had her toddler and breastfeeding baby. As you can imagine it has been very hard to have any meaningful converstation with her and after both times I have just felt so lonely and unimportant afterwards.

She offered to meet up for brunch, but when I asked if she was bringing her children (more specifically the toddler)- she said most likely. I then declined stating that I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children. That was 2 days ago and I haven't recieved a reply.

I really felt the loss yesterday and cried alot. I understand her bringing the baby and would be more supportive if she was a single mum, but her husband and his family are here and they love spending time with the children. I am also a little bit sensitive to the fact that if I was a man I wouldn't even have to think about this problem at all if I asked to meet with my friend.

At this stage I wouldn't feel comfortable disucssing the above with my friend directly. I think she may be struggling alot more that she is letting on and adding to it would make it worse or she just wouldn't be able to engage. But since I can't speak to her in any meanginful way; I don't know this for sure.

So as I dont have children; can you tell me if this is ones of those things that against the laws of nature and is outrageous for me to think about asking her; or is it her personal choice and has anyone actually navigated this situation successfully before?

I am over the emotional part of the loss, so be as honest and direct as you like with your feedback.

Honestly. Friends with children and/or babies are boring as fuck. You've said it already. You've experienced it. No one comes before their kids. Rightly so I suppose. All they can talk about is the minutiae of child rearing so I leave them to their 'mummy friends'.

I've learned to just side step that friendship until such time as their kids decide their parents are boring as fuck and we rekindle.

Do yourself a favour find a friendship group who aren't going to have kids. Plenty of them.

OP I think the main thing is you have requested child free time, instead of asking how she would feel about child free time. It's not as easy as hubby being home so she can leave. Any / All of the 3 could be experiencing separation anxiety or attachment issues.

And yes it might be possible to meet without a breastfeeding baby, but that's only if the mother wants to and is ready for that.

For some mothers leaving the kids for a while, however short it might seem to you, is a massive deal.

Ask her what she wants. Ask her if she is ready for that. Make a few suggestions (e.g. An hour at a spa, afternoon tea) rather than just demanding child free time.

It is hard when friends have children and you become less of priority, I've been on that side too, but just have to accept their lives have changed massively

I read this post and immediately felt the stress of these types of unbalanced friendships. One child free mate finds kids overwhelming with all the noise and distractions. This is the reality for most mums, so while it is annoying its also the only way to socialise at all. I also can't help but feel like it's a bit of a judgement about my life and kids, but that's probably projecting.

My advice would be to let the friendship go for this season as she's too busy raising kids and maintaining her relationship/ career etc to focus on your needs. Harsh but probably true. Come back to her when she's out of the trenches and don't take it personally.

OP, do you know whether her dh or her family is supportive? Mine weren't and my toddler went everywhere with me unless I was at work.

There is a knack to this. Suggest meeting for a picnic which accommodates everyone. Take something for the toddler to play with, that he hasn't seen before. Choose a venue, ideally outside and safe ( a play park etc) where toddler can run around, where you can talk as you walk with your friend.

Your friend has other responsibilities now but if you adapt with her, it can work.

Your friend may need your company as much as you need hers. Being in a strange country with two small children and an unhelpful partner is not easy.

I think you are assuming that your friend wants to see you alone and that in fact she may not. Life with a breastfed infant and a toddler is all consuming, they literally take up all your time and energy, and to try to create a life where they don't is to set yourself up for a lot of stress. Many mothers of young children fully embrace this time; it is after all short-lived with many precious moments.
Not everyone actually wants to do the sorts of things they did before having children and it gets tedious when others try to push them into non-child friendly outings. I don't think she is necessarily assuming you want to see her children but the reality is that they are a package, and it is very judgmental of you to assume she even wants to leave them behind. It's also very judgmental of you to assume she wants weekends away and that her partner is in some way lacking because he goes away some times.
Saying, "I get it, looking after toddlers is tough" is a bit thick too. It isn't necessarily "tough", but it is a full life. For many it is also very joyful.
You are negative about your friend's children and choices and you have made it clear you prefer to see her apart from them. That won't have gone down well. I think you need to stick to people who don't care for children of family, you will relate better to them.

OP, I'm childless too so I know what it's like but honestly, you're coming off like an petulant toddler here!

You can't just demand she leaves her kids and comes to listen to you for a few hours. You can't keep saying "if we were men it'd be different". Stop it.

If you actually want this friendship to survive 10 years from now, you need to think about HER needs too. She needs to keep her little ones near and for you to show some interest and care for her and them too.

Like I said in the intial post I am a bit annoyned because her husband went away for a whole weekend with his friends, and I can't even get 90 mins.

I’m sorry you’ve had a tough time but you’ve made this all about you. Are you really interested in what’s going on with her or do you want someone to offload onto? It sounds like you are in very different life stages and the closeness that once was, has gone. You clearly had different expectations about the meet up and your annoyance that your expectations weren’t met have come across loud and clear.

You complain that she isn’t there for you but she could easily have the same feeling.

I get where you’re coming from but having a 12 week old and a 20 month old I never go out without them and my DP has gone on weekends away and has plenty of child free time. Not the most fair dynamic I am however the primary parent and my toddler would rather be with me.

If anyone wants child free time with me I suggest then coming over after bedtime - maybe you could do the same?

I hate meeting up for catch ups with a friend with a toddler and still do unless we're both bringing one. It just means one person basically sitting there monologuing at a distracted parent occasionally passing comment on the conversation. So I do get it. I also think it's not unreasonable to suggest you catch up with her when she has childcare and can just bring the baby. But the way you worded it was quite blunt and I don't think I'd have felt particularly keen to make arrangements then.

Someone's suggested a night time activity but that's really not feasible for most bf mums who also have toddlers. I would have to decline that.

YABU, but you know that already.

I actually agree with a PP. She just doesn't want to meet with you without her children. If she did, she would. Or she would explain why she can't.

@Ger1atricMillennial honestly the way you’ve responded to posts here makes you sound like you’re very draining. I’m sorry you’re not in a good place but it’s not your friend’s responsibility or duty to listen to you, especially as you say you haven’t been that close for 3 years.

i have a breast fed 3 month old and a toddler, and live abroad away from family and friends. I could logistically meet up without them but only at very limited times (outside DH work hours) and to be frank I wouldn’t waste that opportunity being essentially moaned at. I am drained, touched out and fed up of people wanting/ needing something from me. I would use the time to look after myself. That might be meeting up with friends, but ones who I know we will have a good time laughing and chatting, not expecting me to be their therapist.

The thing that i think is hard to childfree people to accept it that parents will basically always prioritise their children over you/friendships, if forced to choose between them.

If you want to 'navigate' it, message her back quickly to apologise for your shit message.

"Just reading my message back and realised how blunt it was, I'm sorry! It must be tricky juggling two kids, I hope you're doing ok? It would be lovely to have a good catch up soon - if you ever have some toddler-free time let me know? Or we could meet when they're in bed one night? "

YANBU OP, though the way you worded the text could have been rude, your preference to see her without the children isn't. Leaving a bf baby is more difficult, and I would understand her reluctance to leave either with family they hardly knew, but she given your update that her DH is there could leave her toddler with their dad. I wouldn't dream of bringing DD in her situation... I want adult time too (and actually DH would probably be offended if I didn't want to leave her with him)!

This is good. I prefer to meet friends without DC but also need friends to be super flexible as the windows are few and far between (and they do because they're friends). Your message may have come across as rude or she might not be able to make that work at the moment so what this poster has suggested is great (assuming you want to maintain this relationship)

Hi op,

Just a thought. I have a toddler now who was a very difficult baby born in lockdown, due to various medical things. I still have something akin to ptsd from that time managing what we did with such little human contact. I imagine if she's staying with family for this maternity leave it's because she struggled last time and can't do it again.

I've also made friends with other mums who are on their second baby with a toddler in toe and by golly that looks hard. Sometimes people with two can be dealing with multiple wake ups a night from both children!

She probably needs your support more than you need hers at the moment. She might only just be coping hour by hour. She probably needs to get the children out for her sanity. She probably doesn't get much childfree time because the baby is attatched to her and when baby is sleeping/with someone else she is spending time with the toddler who has become really needy since the baby arrived. If I was her I would be spending the likely very limited child free time I had sleeping or doing self care.

I understand you wanting to see her on her own and that is valid but I think you just have to try and have some sympathy for her situation at the moment and wait a while for a new normal in your friendship to emerge. If you hang in there and offer support then you could have a strong life long friendship.

You need some kid free friends.

You can choose to move back or come back to visit for a few days, she can’t just stop feeding her baby for a few days or give up her children.

I'm a single mum to twin toddlers, so when I meet friends the twins are always with me (since I've no one to leave them with).

However I'm very conscious that my child-free friends would probably prefer to see me alone, so that we could have uninterrupted adult time. So I try to work it that we meet when my twins are napping in the buggy or doing something that occupies them.

If I had a partner, I'd definitely expect him to take the toddlers for a couple of hours, so that I could meet a friend.
So I see why you're frustrated -

Sent early - it looks like there is an easy solution (that her husband could take the toddler for an hour), but it seems this option is never considered.

I really don’t think a follow up text will fix it, but maybe worth a try. I would not mention meeting up again ‘child-free when you are ready’ because that’s reinforcing the shit request.

Mothers of breastfeeding babies and toddlers have zero time and a long list of obligations. She will have got the message and mentally crossed the OP off her to-do list, probably regretting the hassle she went through to get to the first meet up.

OP, good friends offer babysitting not make demands.

Tbh the way you said 'when you're ready' would put my hackles up a bit. With two very young children you are in the weeds and people either don't have equivalent amounts of support or get to the point where time without kids is inexpressibly precious and rare.

The implication that one day she'll wake up 'ready' to be a non-child centred adult again and thus able to resume duties as your friend is kind of high-handed.

I'm a parent and I've been in the trenches and it really is quite hard to hold any conversation with a baby and toddler in tow. I think perhaps you could have worded it properly, but completely understand why you did it. I still hate catching up with friends where they are solely focused on their kids for the outing. I feel fairly useless and like I am wasting my time. It depends on the age of the baby, but it may be able to be left with Dad for an hour to have a sip cup etc.

Can I ask if when you have children, would you not want to consider coffee with a friend as a way offloading your problems on to you or is it that you just want to sit in your car and eat cake?

I have a 6 month old baby.
I have seen one friend a couple of times without taking the baby but that is because my partner has looked after the baby. This is definitely more difficult when breastfeeding and has meant expressing beforehand so baby has milk when I am not there.

This friend does not have children, and to be honest I don't think they would like me to take my baby but they haven't said that. But when they arrange to meet me, it's always in places that would be very difficult to take a baby. So I see this friend much less often.
I do like to see this friend and have a good chat, but I do feel sad that my baby isn't factored into the meet ups at all. I don't think it even crosses my friends mind that I would bring my baby.

Last time we arranged to meet, I messaged beforehand to say I would need to bring the baby and then my friend cancelled. I felt sad about this.
It's like my friend wants to keep the friendship the same as it's always been which does mean when we meet, my friend has my undivided attention.

But I've had a massive change in my life by having this baby who is my absolute priority. And I don't feel like that's acknowledged really.

Before I had my baby, I would see my friend who would always bring her baby and I do remember thinking just how different it was seeing her now as she always brought her baby with her. Conversation wasn't the same. We'd often be interrupted by her toddler etc. It would frustrate me sometimes.
But I get it now. It's hard for the friend with the baby too as they have to focus on the baby while also listening and talking to the friend.