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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not want to meet with children there.

267 replies

Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 01:10

AIBU to want to meet with my friend without her children there?

I live in a foreign country and have been very isolated since moving and during the pandemic I went on medication for depression and worked through it with therapy. I have been off it for 9 months and the therapy has helped me move forward and I feel so much better.

One of my closest friends from high school has family in the place that I live, and has come over during the rest of her maternity leave. We have been close in the past, but in the last few years the contact has got less frequent- no doubt due to the distance + life. However; over the last few years everytime we speak on the phone her toddler interrupts or throws a tantrum, and a few times I was on speakerphone and I didn't know and her husband and mum were in the room. This was when I wasn't very well, so I lost some trust there.

Since my friend has arrived I have met up with her twice; both times she had her toddler and breastfeeding baby. As you can imagine it has been very hard to have any meaningful converstation with her and after both times I have just felt so lonely and unimportant afterwards.

She offered to meet up for brunch, but when I asked if she was bringing her children (more specifically the toddler)- she said most likely. I then declined stating that I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children. That was 2 days ago and I haven't recieved a reply.

I really felt the loss yesterday and cried alot. I understand her bringing the baby and would be more supportive if she was a single mum, but her husband and his family are here and they love spending time with the children. I am also a little bit sensitive to the fact that if I was a man I wouldn't even have to think about this problem at all if I asked to meet with my friend.

At this stage I wouldn't feel comfortable disucssing the above with my friend directly. I think she may be struggling alot more that she is letting on and adding to it would make it worse or she just wouldn't be able to engage. But since I can't speak to her in any meanginful way; I don't know this for sure.

So as I dont have children; can you tell me if this is ones of those things that against the laws of nature and is outrageous for me to think about asking her; or is it her personal choice and has anyone actually navigated this situation successfully before?

I am over the emotional part of the loss, so be as honest and direct as you like with your feedback.

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 01/01/2023 03:37

And silence. I missed quietness most of all.

CinnabarRed · 01/01/2023 03:39

Don’t take it personally. In my case I didn’t have capacity to even consider anyone else, so I simply couldn’t be personal. I was just surviving.

Original poster
Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 03:40

Eating in the cake is always self care. I suppose it does mystify me that she has has husband at home full time at the moment, as they are on an extended holiday.

But like I said I dont actually know what is happening because I can't actually talk to her, and I am a good listener.

OP posts:
azimuth299 · 01/01/2023 03:41

Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 03:37

Thanks Murdoch... like I had said in previous posts I didn't understand, why it was so wrong, especially as I have made the effort to slot into her plans previoulsy.

I can only project my interpretations as to why she feels she can't leave her kids, she has a supportive husband; so I guess I have been taking it a little bit personally when she says she just can't even consider it.

You might not be taking into account that the husband, however supportive, can't breastfeed the baby. Don't take it personally, it will get easier as they get older.

CinnabarRed · 01/01/2023 03:41

Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 03:40

Eating in the cake is always self care. I suppose it does mystify me that she has has husband at home full time at the moment, as they are on an extended holiday.

But like I said I dont actually know what is happening because I can't actually talk to her, and I am a good listener.

Now you’re just sounding petulant.

greenteafiend · 01/01/2023 03:43

I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children.

Hi OP, I'm sorry you are struggling with your mental health.

I think a big problem here is that tone of voice does not come across well in text messages, and that comment could sound very different depending on what tone of voice you are imagining it being said in.

It can sound nurturing"I understand you're not feeling quite ready yetplease let me know when you are more ready, because I understand being a mum is tough too."

It can also sound quite cold. Imagine a teacher telling a misbehaving kid "I think it's better if you spend some time out of this classroom. Wait outside, please, UNTIL YOU FEEL READY TO REJOIN THE CLASS" (complete with icy stare) and you'll see what I mean!

Ignore the comment here telling you to ditch the friend and make other friends. I mean, DO make other friends as well, lots of them. Join a club, take up a hobby, all that. But don't dump this friend. She's not currently in a place where she can take a lot of long childfree conversations about your depression--but in a couple of years, she'll be in a different place and you will probably have a better handle on your mental health issue as well.

I would send a text re-explaining what you meant and emphasizing that you understand that she is in a tough situation too, and expressing some appreciation for the fact that she at least made time for you at a time when it must be quite hard for her. I know she chose to have kids--but you also chose to go and live in the place where you are living. There must be some give and take here.

MiddleParking · 01/01/2023 03:46

BadNomad · 01/01/2023 03:10

Yeah, OP, how dare you want to confide in your friend about things that are affecting you. That's not what friends are for! All interactions must be mutually beneficial and fun.

I mean…yes? I have a toddler and a baby. When you get limited socialising time why wouldn’t you prioritise mutual benefit and fun? OP complains that her friend’s husband gets child free time but I’m willing to bet he’s getting mutual benefit and fun out of it and no one is sarcastically suggesting he should be being confided in instead.

Original poster
Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 03:50

Thanks for your considerded feedback. You are right texts lose a lot of context, but I hope that my friend will see that I was being supportive rather than punitive as I had previously fallen in with her plans about what worked for her.

The full text was along the lines, of "no worries, I get it looking after kids is tough. When you feel ready to have a break for a couple of hours I am looking forward to having a proper catch up about how everything is actually going. Just let me know when you are feeling ready" .

I appreciate she wouldn;t have been able to read that I didnt really care about the baby, but I didnt want her to think this was about just her daughter because then you end up in a rabbit hole of taking that personally as well.

OP posts:
Flowersinspringgrowwild · 01/01/2023 03:52

Jesus Christ op I really think you’re taking this way too much to heart. She doesn’t want to leave the children yet. DH or no DH. It’s not about you.

DifferenceEngines · 01/01/2023 03:52

Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 03:40

Eating in the cake is always self care. I suppose it does mystify me that she has has husband at home full time at the moment, as they are on an extended holiday.

But like I said I dont actually know what is happening because I can't actually talk to her, and I am a good listener.

Sorry, but going to the cafe with kids - even with just the baby - is not self care. It is really, really hard work, and takes a lot of preparation.

The husband being at home is irrelevant. She can't leave a breastfed baby with him. Leaving the toddler worry him often has knock - on effects.

MiddleParking · 01/01/2023 04:01

Okay so maybe she’ll be in touch when she’s feeling ready to have a break for a couple of hours then, which you presumably recognised when you said it would be a matter of weeks or months. Or maybe she’s read your text as the reprimand it was and hasn’t replied because she’s wondering who the fuck you think you are. I would be.

Original poster
Ger1atricMillennial · 01/01/2023 04:05

Well thanks for the comments guys its helped me understand the other side of the coin.

Have a lovely new years.

OP posts:
OnceUponAThread · 01/01/2023 04:06

So I think there's a few things.

Firstly, you said you wanted to meet up without the children plural. Later you've said that you suppose the baby would be ok, but it seems that's not what you said to her (not to mention that you don't seem thrilled about it anyway).

Leaving an exclusively breastfed baby ranges from difficult to impossible (depending on whether they'll take a bottle - loads don't).
(Also leaving a small baby is incredibly hard and there's all sorts of emotional stuff there).

Secondly, having one first small child is chaotic and stressful and draining and exhausting and scary and hormonal. Having two is like fighting a war.

Thirdly, as many PPs have said - toddler-free time is precious and rare. Many people with very small children don't manage a child free date with their partner let alone time for friends.

Fourthly, many women just don't want to leave tiny babies even if it is possible. Those years are fleeting and precious and many mothers / parents want to make the most of it before heading back to work etc.

Fifthly, you never know what is going on behind closed doors. She could have PND or anxiety or her husband might be useless. Etc etc.

I think you're completely unreasonable to ask her to leave the breastfed baby. The toddler is less clear cut, but clearly for whatever reason she either doesn't want to leave them or can't.

I thank my lucky stars that my childfree friends make a point of inviting my baby, that they show an interest and are (or pretend to be) delighted to see them.

I am also so glad that I was understanding and kind and thrilled to hang out with my friends' kids when I was child-free myself.

The baby stage passes and then you can leave them of course. But I'd be hurt and offended by anyone trying to get me to leave my breastfed baby at home. And I probably wouldn't put them top of my list to spend time with when I had child free time.

It is precisely those friends who tolerate me being attached to a baby and hold the baby and give me my arms back and don't make it weird that I want to spend all my childfree time with when it is possible.

AffIt · 01/01/2023 04:08

So many posts deriding the OP for not understanding why women with children apparently can't do ANYTHING, yet every bloody second post on this forum is 'I'm so lonely / why don't I have any friends?' etc.

Perhaps this is why.

greenteafiend · 01/01/2023 04:14

How old is the baby, by the way?

Mumsnetters do seem to have this belief that "YOU CAN'T LEAVE A BREASTFED BABY" but I had a stubborn bottle refuser and still left her for short periods "between feeds" from a few weeks old--it was a tight squeeze, but yes, we could just about fit a cinema visit in if we went straight there and back - and from about the same age we started introducing milk fed on a spoon, so it was possible to leave her, even with her refusing bottles. It was a bit of a hassle, so I'm not saying every exhausted mother who is juggling a toddler too is going to be open to doing this on a regular basis.

From 5-6mo, babies do start eating food gradually, so it starts to get easier to just leave them with cereal and mashed banana, and then it becomes way easier to leave them for longer periods.

A lot of breastfeeders on MN seem to think that breastfeeding means you just sit there in your dressing gown cluster feeding on demand for a year or two. My own experience is that once BFing is established, you can have a loose routine and they can have milk on a spoon and soon start adding some solids, even if they refuse all bottles. And the majority of BF babies will actually drink from a bottle, in my experience.

Expressing milk does tend to be a bit of a hassle though. If she has other things she wants to do during her limited windows of childfree time, she might not necessarily want to spend it doing these depression debriefing sessions, if you see what I mean.

She may be a bit depressed herself, or her husband may be a useless twat who is not stepping up, and is quite happy to use "But.... BREASTFEEDING!!!!" as this eternal trump card that means he is excused from doing anything for months or years on end, rather than thinking of ways to ensure that Mum can have a bit of freedom while the breastfeeding is going on.

atoxk · 01/01/2023 04:20

I've had kids but my best friend hasn't been able too yet. So had to work having kids and friend angle. Nothing wrong with having child free time with a friend who hasn't had kids. X

Ivyonafence · 01/01/2023 04:23

OP I feel for you, it can be hard living in a new country.

You're a rare creature on AIBU in that you took peoples advice on board and actually wanted a solution so kudos for that!

It's great that you're seeing a psychologist. I hope you feel better soon.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see a friend without kids, but maybe a bit unreasonable to expect it/feel deprived if you don't get it.

I have kids. I like to meet up with friends for coffee without them for all the reasons you mentioned. I like to be able to focus on my friend and not have the conversation hijacked by Bobby showing me his dinosaurs or whatever. It (secretly) annoys me when we plan a catch up and someone's children miraculously appear, even though I've organised childcare for mine. I feel you. But I don't ever say anything because everyone's children are their priority, it's not forever and everyone's different about leaving their kids.

I think if you value the friendship- suck it up and ride it out.

Try to make new friends where you are instead. Your friend will leave anyway, so this won't fix your homesickness in the long term. Join a book club or a cooking class or something and make new locals friends who will help you settle in.

DifferenceEngines · 01/01/2023 04:25

greenteafiend · 01/01/2023 04:14

How old is the baby, by the way?

Mumsnetters do seem to have this belief that "YOU CAN'T LEAVE A BREASTFED BABY" but I had a stubborn bottle refuser and still left her for short periods "between feeds" from a few weeks old--it was a tight squeeze, but yes, we could just about fit a cinema visit in if we went straight there and back - and from about the same age we started introducing milk fed on a spoon, so it was possible to leave her, even with her refusing bottles. It was a bit of a hassle, so I'm not saying every exhausted mother who is juggling a toddler too is going to be open to doing this on a regular basis.

From 5-6mo, babies do start eating food gradually, so it starts to get easier to just leave them with cereal and mashed banana, and then it becomes way easier to leave them for longer periods.

A lot of breastfeeders on MN seem to think that breastfeeding means you just sit there in your dressing gown cluster feeding on demand for a year or two. My own experience is that once BFing is established, you can have a loose routine and they can have milk on a spoon and soon start adding some solids, even if they refuse all bottles. And the majority of BF babies will actually drink from a bottle, in my experience.

Expressing milk does tend to be a bit of a hassle though. If she has other things she wants to do during her limited windows of childfree time, she might not necessarily want to spend it doing these depression debriefing sessions, if you see what I mean.

She may be a bit depressed herself, or her husband may be a useless twat who is not stepping up, and is quite happy to use "But.... BREASTFEEDING!!!!" as this eternal trump card that means he is excused from doing anything for months or years on end, rather than thinking of ways to ensure that Mum can have a bit of freedom while the breastfeeding is going on.

I breast fed for ages, so I agree with every thing you've said, but a lot of it is just trying to get across how hard it can be practically to leave a baby. People who haven't had kids often say things like " can't the baby just have a bottle " without appreciating the whole background load / logistics/ etc.

MrNook · 01/01/2023 04:32

when I asked if she was bringing her children (more specifically the toddler)- she said most likely. I then declined stating that I would be happy to meet up when she feels ready to without her children

I'd probably find this quite rude too!

Perhaps you should've explained or said "Would it be okay if we met alone/you only brought baby as I have a lot to talk about and would love to be able to talk properly/uninterrupted"

If someone asked if my DD was coming then declined when I said yes with no explanation I'd be really hurt

Blueborage · 01/01/2023 04:35

I don't like others' little children much. They tend to be noisy with sticky fingers at best and are far less attractive than they think. People seem very attached to them though and can't believe others don't want to spend time with them.

MrNook · 01/01/2023 04:37

Oh yeah I can wait it out, it just felt like a loss because I guess she is the first person I have seen for 3 years from home and well I we have both changed, and I have been looking forward to seeing her and it was so different

I'd be sad too in this situation especially when you're feeling so down and lonely

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 01/01/2023 04:44

AffIt · 01/01/2023 04:08

So many posts deriding the OP for not understanding why women with children apparently can't do ANYTHING, yet every bloody second post on this forum is 'I'm so lonely / why don't I have any friends?' etc.

Perhaps this is why.

Exactly what I've been thinking.

OP, you did nothing wrong. Hopefully your friend will reflect on what she heard.

Swimminginthelake · 01/01/2023 04:54

Sorry but I think you are making this all about you and what you need. You want a meaningful conversation/ support but maybe she doesn't feel able to give that right now.

KickHimInTheCrotch · 01/01/2023 05:09

I think maybe she just isn't that fussed about meeting up with you. Her life has changed immeasurably in the last few years and she's, understandably, focussed on her children. Your problems aren't a priority for her and while it seems she's made an effort to meet up with you, this apparently isn't good enough and you now want more of her. There's only so much to go around. When my kids were that age I had no sleep, no energy and I would have kept my distance from people who wanted more than I had to give.

Mamaneedsadrink · 01/01/2023 06:05

Not at all, I am the same with my own DC, it's impossible to have a meaningful catch up with a friend. It may have been your wording, I'd try again?