Men in women’s spaces

[BrightSaturn]

Just using this to rant really…

2 times in the past month I have encountered men in women only spaces.

1. I went to a feeding room to breastfeed my daughter in a shopping centre. I walked in and there were two young women in there changing their babies and one of their boyfriends just taking up one of the only chairs just sitting there, sitting using his phone. It’s a small room with 3 chairs in. I didn’t know what to do so I thought I’ll just sit down and get ready slowly and hopefully they’ll leave. I have fed in public but this was a small room so I felt vulnerable and like he shouldn’t be there and I didn’t want to lift my top up whilst he was sitting basically opposite me so I eventually asked if he could leave the room, they looked annoyed but thankfully he did go, after she looked at him and said “it’s up to you”…
2. I went into a changing room in a shop the other day with my mum, imagine a big room with seats in the middle and curtained dividers all round the outside. My mum was only trying on cardigans so really she just needed a mirror but in the middle on a seat was a boy about 17/18 years old. His girlfriend was trying on clothes. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t even doors on the changing rooms, just curtains. Why he thought this was acceptable I have no idea. Again I felt vulnerable and this time I didn’t have the confidence to ask him to leave. If my mum had been actually changing I would have probably found a shop assistant but still it’s not fair that we have to ask them to leave, he should not have been there in the first place!

aibu to think women’s spaces are being invaded more and more? How can we stop this from happening?

But we all pay for that through increased costs which will be recouped by whoever builds them. If their wasn't another way to feed a baby it would be a necessity,
but what your asking for is in a cost of living crisis to spend more money that isn't needed.

In addition, many women who bottle fed felt that breastfeeding rooms were unfair to their babies and they have a point

Unfair to their babies? What is this point?
The rooms are their for the women who feel uncomfortable and vulnerable potentially exposing their breasts in public whilst trying to feed their babies so why on earth would this be 'unfair' to bottle fed babies.
It's about the women not the babies.

Any single sex facilities increase costs. Are you going to argue against those too?

@ClitoralViolence quite happily, the day I don't have to wait longer than DH for the fitting room or toilet will be a good day.

I'm not scrolling back through the entire thread to check but I'm pretty sure that the OP said that a separate nappy changing room was provided.

Enjoy the leers, sneers, "accidental" curtain pulling and outright assaults then. The rest of us prefer safety and dignity.

Yes I did - and used the recently installed breastfeeding room in my local John Lewis which is why I know they existed. Although I didn't personally get involved there were lots of women in the 80s / 90s who campaigned to remove the stigma from breastfeeding in public and to stop women being routinely asked to leave places - both by normalising women feeding in public and by getting larger businesses to meet their needs with private spaces.
Back then few employers / businesses made accommodation for breastfeeding women and it's taken a lot of effort over the years to get women's needs identified, spoken about and met.

Your response is funny I should ask dp how he feels next time.

And I suspect those who think women don't deserve their own feeding rooms also don't think Stonewall had anything to do with these facilities being renamed or our changing rooms and facilities in general erased. It's just all one big coincidence. Am I right?

No one has said men shouldn't be more involved in parenting. That is your hyperbolic and rather desperate leap. We are saying, that there should be womens feeding rooms, AND mens feeding rooms. Have TWO lots of feeding rooms.

They don't need to say that men shouldn't be more involved in parenting. My point is that if nappy changing changing facilities are only in women only rooms it will reduce men being as involved in childcare. I don't think anyone has actually said that there should be men’s feeding facilities, women's feeding facilities actually. If there is also separate nappy changing facilities that would be three separate rooms which would be great but don't you think the lack of three or even two rooms in commercial premises is to do with cost rather than the influence of an LGTBT organisation such as Stonewall?

She did later on state that there was an additional changing room but there were obviously also changing facilities in the room she was in or there wouldn't have been two women changing nappies in there when she arrived. i.e. the room wasn't just for breastfeeding as you stated.

Just this.

Please tell me if I’m being monumentally thick here - I don’t have kids, so it’s possible.

I always thought that nowadays, if bottle-feeding, that you get everything made up before heading out - so that you have everything with you ready to go. Am I wrong? Do you have to find some special place to prepare said bottle? Because, if so, shit needs to change - how on earth do mums cope with finding a secret place to prepare said bottles?

Weirdly, I don’t think I’m wrong. Am going to guess that, if you pack and head out with a bottle, that you don’t need a special place to administer it.

This. Every bloody time.

Personally, I think there should be dedicated “women-only” breastfeeding facilities. And then a generic “parent” room for changing etc.

Its perfectly possible to bottle feed in a number of easily accessible public locations such as benches, cafes, even the bus if necessary.
Its also possible to take a commercially ready prepared bottle with you, so all you need to do is get it out of the bag and give it to the baby.
However, these things are not optimum. Commercially pre prepared bottles are expensive and won't necessarily be at the temperature your baby prefers. Pre prepared at home bottles need to be kept cool in a cool bag, and then reheated, requiring standing it in a flask of hot water. Obviously these things don't need to be done 'in secret' but they need to be done somewhere where hot water can used without risk of spilling it everywhere.
There might also be problems getting a baby to accept the bottle in public, or they may have reflux that creates mess that needs dealing with.
So the ability to access a special feeding room makes bottle feeding a whole lot easier.

So basically people entirely understand that bottle fed babies that have colic might need a private area so it’s less difficult/ awkward feeding them but also struggle to understand that women breastfeeding their babies might prefer to do this without men present? Even benign kind men? I didn’t always feel very comfortable feeding in front of my own (very kind DF and DB) so why would I feel comfortable in front of a male stranger?

Single sex breastfeeding room (which could also be used by women bottle feeding as long as it was the female parent not male doing the bottle feeding) PLUS a mixed sex ‘family room’ for breast feeding women comfortable in front of men they don’t know and men bottle feeding their babies. Everyone happy?

No, I understand both. There are a number of needs associated with care of babies that need to be met.
Privacy in women only spaces for BF
Places where parents of either sex can prepare bottles and feed babies.
Places where parents of either sex can change their babies.
Everyone should indeed be happy with your suggestion. But in the absence of that, women's privacy to BF should imo take priority in the spaces that are available.
There is a difference in requiring a facility for privacy, dignity and personal safety than merely for convenience.

Most shopping centres have more than one set of toilets so you’d think it would be fairly straightforward for make one family room just for breastfeeding

No, if only one room is available, a room that both men and women can change nappies in should be the priority.

How about a separate campaign to add baby changing units into male loos (as they often exist in women’s)? Why should the mixed sex baby changing facility supplant the space designated for women to breastfeed their babies for their privacy and convenience?
There are plenty of useful battles to ensure men can take up their share of parenting but this particular one isn’t one of them. If a man wants to change his baby he can take it up with the business if he ends up having to do it somewhere inconvenient (just as women often do). If he/ they can’t be bothered to take up this fight then why are we doing it for them?

MY fight here is for women who require a dedicated space for breastfeeding. Take yours elsewhere.

How about a separate campaign to add baby changing units into male loos (as they often exist in women’s)?
This seriously needs to happen. It was one of DH's pet hates when we were in that stage. Why should he have to try and change a baby on a toilet floor because some places haven't got with the times and accepted that men are active parents too?

Well, men's parenting is sort of active but they do tend to make all the social changes needed the responsibility of women to sort out. Until they're defining their needs and demanding they are met (and not through just cuckooing on women), they aren't really properly active.

Its not going to happen is it? Because for all their complaining, many men in reality would find it highly convenient if they never had to take a turn at changing their baby cos..no facilities!
Other than in families where the parents are exclusively male, I'd imagine that the people really interested in spaces for men to change and feed babies are actually women.
So, it's the needs of some women competing with the needs of some other women, with men largely not caring less. I don't expect to see a male led campaign any time soon.

I agree @5128gap . Just like we’ll never see men campaigning for the safety of all men in single sex loos regardless of how they identify. There are never any ardent groups of men waving Pride flags and exhorting other men to ‘be kind’ and to think of women as well as gender non-conforming men. No men saying ‘it’s shit that we expect women to have to accommodate men in the areas that make them feel unsafe - what can WE do as men to make sure our loos are safe for TW?’
Strange how there are no men campaigning anywhere for equal pay, equal access to childcare changing facilities, for safety in male loos, for basically ANYTHING that helps women or vulnerable members of society.
And yet women get slapped around the face by other women for not having the temerity to think of men ALL the time. We constantly have to put everyone else first. No wonder these battles are so exhausting - even just campaigning for basic things for women (a breastfeeding space) gets hijacked by demands to think about pretty much everybody except a breastfeeding mother.