Men in women’s spaces

[BrightSaturn]

Just using this to rant really…

2 times in the past month I have encountered men in women only spaces.

1. I went to a feeding room to breastfeed my daughter in a shopping centre. I walked in and there were two young women in there changing their babies and one of their boyfriends just taking up one of the only chairs just sitting there, sitting using his phone. It’s a small room with 3 chairs in. I didn’t know what to do so I thought I’ll just sit down and get ready slowly and hopefully they’ll leave. I have fed in public but this was a small room so I felt vulnerable and like he shouldn’t be there and I didn’t want to lift my top up whilst he was sitting basically opposite me so I eventually asked if he could leave the room, they looked annoyed but thankfully he did go, after she looked at him and said “it’s up to you”…
2. I went into a changing room in a shop the other day with my mum, imagine a big room with seats in the middle and curtained dividers all round the outside. My mum was only trying on cardigans so really she just needed a mirror but in the middle on a seat was a boy about 17/18 years old. His girlfriend was trying on clothes. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t even doors on the changing rooms, just curtains. Why he thought this was acceptable I have no idea. Again I felt vulnerable and this time I didn’t have the confidence to ask him to leave. If my mum had been actually changing I would have probably found a shop assistant but still it’s not fair that we have to ask them to leave, he should not have been there in the first place!

aibu to think women’s spaces are being invaded more and more? How can we stop this from happening?

[user1483646497]

@ShrillBill

Really, is that what you think? Many women who don't have access to single sex facilities have to stay at home. Some are in coercive or controlling relationships. Those women are invisible to you, You've decided they don't matter, and that's the definition of privilege.

Its very simple, we just want separate facilities for women who need single sex facilities.
If you need your DH to massage your breasts while you feed, or you are a man who wants to feed his child, do it in a mixed sex space.

Exactly. No issue with mixed-sex spaces existing, as long as women-only spaces are ALSO kept in existence for those who need/want them.

[EndlessRain1]

I don't know really, on one had I get that women need to feel comfortable, but on the other if their baby fed for ages maybe he was just keeping his partner company. He should have moved to give you a seat though. I never minded feeding anywhere, or in front of anyone though, so perhaps I just can't really get worked up about it.

Don't get the worry in the curtians vs door changing rooms scenario though, unless the curtains are insufficient and don't cover the opening properly. What is the fear here, being seen or the man coming in?

[user1483646497]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I would not have challenged him (how could I if he's allowed) to be there) but I will not use changing facilities again. This is what happens when single sex spaces are quietly shelved and made inclusive. Women lose.

High street shops will lose too. Why trek round the high street when you don't feel comfortable trying anything on?

Yep, and stores may end up finding out they've bitten off more than they can chew when sexual harassment/assault complaints start rising.

[ShrillBill]

That hasn't stopped hospitals though, they seem happy to pay out to victims instead of enforcing single sex rules. .

[RufustheFloralmissingreindeer]

No issue with mixed-sex spaces existing, as long as women-only spaces are ALSO kept in existence for those who need/want them

yup

[orchid220]

@ShrillBill

Really, is that what you think? Many women who don't have access to single sex facilities have to stay at home. Some are in coercive or controlling relationships. Those women are invisible to you, You've decided they don't matter, and that's the definition of privilege.

Its very simple, we just want separate facilities for women who need single sex facilities.
If you need your DH to massage your breasts while you feed, or you are a man who wants to feed his child, do it in a mixed sex space.

Are you talking about nappy changing as in OP's first example? If so, I don't think single sex facilities and giving the impression that changing nappies is women's work is good for women's rights at all and I don't see how providing them means women can get out of the home. Quite the opposite. I'm not sure about single sex feeding rooms increases women's freedom either having thought more about it due to this thread. Arguably, that also may signal to some that women should hide away when breast feeding and if they can't stay at home.

[Addicted2Kale]

I agree. I also think men should be strongly disuaded if not out right banned from posting here too.

[DdraigGoch]

@orchid220

I suspect that most of the posters arguing that feeding/changing facilities are
or should be “women only” spaces have not had children for a very long time or breastfed, if at all including OP. The fact that many are also on threads regarding trans issues and are blaming Stonewall for the fact that changing facilities are “family rooms” rather than recognising that women themselves want men to be involved in childcare and have campaigned for this to happen says it all.

If the man was sat there on his phone, just how involved with childcare was he at that moment? I understand that there was a separate changing room available anyway.

At the very least he should have proactively offered to leave the room when the OP came in (given that he wasn't actually doing anything that needed him to be there). I also doubt that he got anyone to check that the room was clear before going in. I'm sure that had he actually been feeding or changing a baby the OP would have been more accommodating, either getting on with it herself or being prepared to wait until he had finished. As it was though, he was just hanging around like a spare part.

[ShrillBill]

@orchid220 Yes, I didn't think you knew anything about coercive control and your comment just confirms it.

[sevensocks]

Thinking more about my experience in the changing room (described in my previous post) I think what worries me now is that single sex areas were always a bit of a safe haven, you sort of knew that if ever concerned about a bloke following you or getting unwanted attention you could go into the ladies loos and wait it out with other women. Now it seems there's nothing to stop men (no social norms) entering and it does make me feel more vulnerable.

[orchid220]

@DdraigGoch

If the man was sat there on his phone, just how involved with childcare was he at that moment? I understand that there was a separate changing room available anyway.

At the very least he should have proactively offered to leave the room when the OP came in (given that he wasn't actually doing anything that needed him to be there). I also doubt that he got anyone to check that the room was clear before going in. I'm sure that had he actually been feeding or changing a baby the OP would have been more accommodating, either getting on with it herself or being prepared to wait until he had finished. As it was though, he was just hanging around like a spare part.

He might not have been involved at that moment in time and it was rude to sit there. However it isn't an argument to make the changing rooms single sex. It is an argument to make them one parent at a time if anything. It would be unusual if there were effectively two changing room available next to each other but if that is true then perhaps OP should suggest that all the changing facilities are in one room and the other is for feeding. Apart from anything else it will be more hygienic.

[orchid220]

@ShrillBill

@orchid220 Yes, I didn't think you knew anything about coercive control and your comment just confirms it.

How does my comment confirm it? How would single sex nappy changing facilities help rather than hinder women's rights and freedoms?

[ClitoralViolence]

How have you jumped from single sex feeding rooms to single sex nappy changing facilities?

[orchid220]

@ClitoralViolence

How have you jumped from single sex feeding rooms to single sex nappy changing facilities?

Because they are usually in the same room including in OP's example.

[ShrillBill]

Because you know anyone who isn't breastfeeding is not supposed to be in a room dedicated to breastfeeding.

So what we need is;
Breastfeeding room (single sex, single purpose) and
mixed sex family room. We all win.

[Clymene]

It was not a baby changing room. It was a breastfeeding room.

No men should be in there. None. Zero. It is for women and breastfed babies. No one else.

[orchid220]

@Clymene

It was not a baby changing room. It was a breastfeeding room.

No men should be in there. None. Zero. It is for women and breastfed babies. No one else.

If it was just a breastfeeding room and there were no nappy changing facilities then how were two women changing their babies?

[orchid220]

@ShrillBill

Because you know anyone who isn't breastfeeding is not supposed to be in a room dedicated to breastfeeding.

So what we need is;
Breastfeeding room (single sex, single purpose) and
mixed sex family room. We all win.

I'm not sure there are any rooms dedicated just to breastfeeding. Women who bottle feed their babies would argue that discriminated against their babies. I think it would be good to separate feeding from nappy changing but I suppose that would be up to the shops etc providing the facilities.

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

@orchid220

I suspect that most of the posters arguing that feeding/changing facilities are
or should be “women only” spaces have not had children for a very long time or breastfed, if at all including OP. The fact that many are also on threads regarding trans issues and are blaming Stonewall for the fact that changing facilities are “family rooms” rather than recognising that women themselves want men to be involved in childcare and have campaigned for this to happen says it all.

Apologies - my previous post was in response to this post from Orchid.

orchid220 claimed upthread to have campaigned back in the 90s for "breastfeeding facilities and for women to be able to feed anywhere" 😂
Stating that they "suspect that most of the posters arguing that feeding/changing facilities are or should be “women only” spaces have not had children for a very long time or breastfed, if at all including OP" is somewhat ageist. And if a woman states she's breastfed then why disbelieve her experience?

When they say "The fact that many are also on threads regarding trans issues and are blaming Stonewall for the fact that changing facilities are “family rooms” " again misses the points repeatedly stated earlier:
Wanting men involved in childcare is a good thing. It has led to the unintentional consequence of breastfeeding spaces (that orchid220 campaigned so successfully for in the 90s) morphing into parent rooms etc.

Stonewall would of course deem orchid220's language transphobic for using sex based language like women and breastfeeding which demonstrates the problem with Stonewall's approach to women,

[orchid220]

I didn't say anything about campaigning "successfully" for breast feeding spaces actually. The main focus of campaigns (which I was involved with along with a lot of other women) was on being able to breast feed anywhere without being told to leave the premises or being discriminated against and that has happened. The focus wasn't on having single sex breastfeeding spaces. At the time I personally thought that it would be good if there were breastfeeding spaces that were separate from nappy changing but the most important thing were baby changing facilities that both men and women could use or family rooms . In addition, many women who bottle fed felt that breastfeeding rooms were unfair to their babies and they have a point.

Your use of "unintentional consequence" suggests that most women with babies/toddlers would like the nappy changing rooms to be single sex rather than family but I don't think so.

[orchid220]

A if a woman states she's breastfed then why disbelieve her experience?

I'm not sure that any of the posters arguing that feeding/baby changing facilities should be women only have said they breast fed actually. Did you?

[ClitoralViolence]

@orchid220

Because they are usually in the same room including in OP's example.

Well thats disingenuous isnt it.

[ClitoralViolence]

@orchid220

I'm not sure there are any rooms dedicated just to breastfeeding. Women who bottle feed their babies would argue that discriminated against their babies. I think it would be good to separate feeding from nappy changing but I suppose that would be up to the shops etc providing the facilities.

I maybe slightly shortsighted, but I didn't realise I was actually blind. So the Breastfeeding rooms (there were 2 lockable individual rooms) at the Children's hospital dedicated to breastfeeding just didnt exist and the signs didn't say breastfeeding?
Thanks for clarifying that to me.

[ClitoralViolence]

In addition, many women who bottle fed felt that breastfeeding rooms were unfair to their babies and they have a point.

Its not about the babies though is it? Its about the women who don't aren't confident enough to or just dont want to get their tits out in public.
If you suddenly say these rooms are all mixed sex, whats the difference between these rooms and a quiet corner in a coffee shop? And then the women who can't get undressed in mixed sex areas are suddenly excluded from spending any length of time in public life until they stop breastfeeding. I know who's being discriminated against here and its not the babies.