Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

I agree with everything you’ve written.

@TheWindIsChanging I agreed with you on the previous thread, and I still agree with you.

I disagree with everything you've written. The reason other countries have better healthcare is because they spend more on it per head. You can easily look up those figures if you want to. The reason for inflation is putting more money into circulation, which was for furlough payments and PPE contracts. Most NHS staff obviously weren't furloughed.
You don't seem to have read the previous thread!

But the nurses, etc feel the same. The nub of this is that people aren’t joining the professions due to pay and conditions which is directly impacting on patient outcomes and care. Staff are sick of this, sick of working in a broken system where they can’t provide the care they’d like to. Sick of seeing people die because of lack of staff/beds/operations/resources. So they’re striking. Short term pain for long term gain. The ends justify the means. Utilitarianism in action.

People are dying every day because of a lack of ambulances and a lack of nurses.

The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral

Well like most things stated as "reality" there is some debate over that. Current economic conditions are nothing like the 1970s.

Ambulances can't get to people the need them anyway, that's the reality of the current NHS. It has been that way for a long time now. Working for the NHS isn't attractive, so staff leaving are not being replaced.

Ambulances are still responding today, they haven't just "downed tools". Arguably, the service in a lot of areas won't be any different to any other day of the year because they can't get to many calls on a normal working day due to the long delays at hospital.

It's not just about pay, it's also about patient safety and working conditions. If they don't speak up, there won't be an ambulance service left because everyone will leave.

They shouldn't make Dr's and nurses pay for training it used to be done differently we had more people in then these days you can't afford to train as a nurse unless you have a financial backer and loads of support

My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low

So you agree pay is too low, but you don't want them to down tools by striking for a day to try to improve their pay.

Would you prefer that they downed tools on the NHS permanently and got higher pay by working in a different job?

Or how else would you like them to get higher pay, given that you agree that the pay is too low?

The 'inflation death spiral' is simplistic economic thinking. Just like 'trickle down economics'.

Bottom line: if you keep cutting people's wages in an environment where prices keep rising, the shit is going to hit the fan and you have to deal with it.

Hurling cheap insults at those who think differently is typical of people who have no good arguments left.

Personally, I’d be raging if a relative of mine had died at any time in the last few years as a result of the problems in the NHS. If a relative of mine died today, I’d be even more bloody furious with Government for playing silly games. They have done fuck all to help resolve the crisis of ambulances being stuck outside overflowing hospitals and nobody being able to so their job properly any more. Why bring in the army now? Why pretend only today is a crisis, ffs? Wankers.

Borrowing something from the previous thread, it was asked why the government "didn't prepare" for an increasingly aged population with the complex illnesses this involves

Rightly or not I believe the only real answer to this is for people to accept that not everyone can be cured of everything all the time, and that preserving life indefinitely is neither possible nor desirable; however I'm not convinced it's a message the wider population's prepared to take on board and until it is I see no answer to the mess we're in

The health system is in a mess. Staff sitting back and accepting being treated like rubbish won’t do anything to improve things for anyone.

my dad qualified as a nurse 50 years ago. He said the other day maybe if his generation of nurses had stood up more for the pay and conditions things wouldn’t be the mess they are now. The government have got to used to thinking health care workers will carry on regardless

What @noblegiraffe said ^^

A coherent answer this time, on this thread, would be welcome.

I agree with you. I am starting to think it's time we had different system as the NHS just isn't working anymore. Throwing more money at it won't help in the long run. I'd rather pay a bit at the moment and have proper healthcare than have the free inadequate system we have now.

@Puzzledandpissedoff - if this is why the Government has done nothing to resolve the crisis, then the Government has a responsibility to govern, to say what it actually thinks and means and actually do something about it. Saying one thing and doing another is otherwise known as incompetence and corruption.

I agree ( and I’m in the age group affected)@

You don't get health care for free

national insurance was invented as the way in which you pay for it

Good grief at this rate you will let the government force you to get private healthcare and let them keep the money you pay in taxes for healthcare!

As for pay rises causing an inflationary death spiral, I'd appreciate a response to this economist's analysis that says that the increased tax revenue from the pay increases means that they are affordable, and that inflation will come down next year anyway.

Pic is part of a much larger thread here: twitter.com/richardjmurphy/status/1603280799482068992?s=61&t=PObT0Rk1mbrwghNzhlprtw

Is the NHS underfunded or wasteful, or both?

If it's wasteful, why is this rarely spoken about in serious terms?

Both nurses and paramedics have tried every option before striking. The government will not even meet to negotiate. The choice is between strikes and doing nothing, and this in healthcare see on a daily basis just how critical the situation is.

The strike today may effect access to ambulances today, but believe me there wasn't good access yesterday and their won't be tomorrow. When the nurses were on strike, many wards found their emergency strike staffing level was above the staffing level they are usually at.

I think that people blaming healthcare workers are not really seeing things as they are. Stopping fighting for improvements to pay and conditions is just accepting the breakdown of our healthcare system.

I don't understand his logic. How can pay rises costing 28 billion bring in 55 billion in tax revenues? That's double the pay rises?

I agree with what the op says

The NHS is not fit for purpose and needs a drastic overhaul instead on money being thrown at it. There us plenty of evidence of waste, of contracts being given that should not have been. It’s to management heavy and as to streamlining paperwork millions could be saved

However as soon as anyone makes suggestions unions kick off. Until such time as the unions accept they have a part to pay in moving forward by accepting change is necessary and support it nothing will happen

staff also have a part to play I undertook a course with someone who was sent into a hospital to look at how working practices could be made better and any ideas were blocked by consultants and surgeons as soon as suggested as they wanted to do what they wanted when they wanted no matter more operations could be done if the suggestions were implemented.

We only need to look at what is happening with GPs to believe this is what may be happening across the board

Remarkable that you think no one has spoken about waste before, when this has been a leading topic in the NHS for over a decade.

For any striking health care workers reading this thread

I have cancer. I have appointments and treatment postponed and cancelled

I 100% support you