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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

432 replies

TheWindIsChanging · 21/12/2022 15:17

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

OP posts:
Lucimaya · 22/12/2022 19:27

ThisAgainForTheMillionthTime · 22/12/2022 19:15

I totally agree with you and think these people are in the wrong jobs if they think more pay is more important than peoples lives. There are bound to be lives lost because of these strikes. How they can stand on their picket lines and live with that on their conscience I really don’t know.
Lots of people want better conditions. Imagine if fire fighters did the same thing -“ no fire trucks coming to you, if your house burns down, tough, but if we bother to answer the phone and there’s enough people trapped we might come, if not phone the local clowns they can throw some buckets of water on it”.

Yep. Also people saying nurses would leave etc, it wouldn't happen. Police can't strike, they have to put up and shut up with whatever they are given, they don't leave in droves. Care staff deserve more, they are only paid a fraction of a nurse's salary.

mbosnz · 22/12/2022 19:32

Um, it's already happening. That's why there's 30,000 vacant positions.

DontStopMeNow7 · 22/12/2022 19:32

ThisAgainForTheMillionthTime · 22/12/2022 19:15

I totally agree with you and think these people are in the wrong jobs if they think more pay is more important than peoples lives. There are bound to be lives lost because of these strikes. How they can stand on their picket lines and live with that on their conscience I really don’t know.
Lots of people want better conditions. Imagine if fire fighters did the same thing -“ no fire trucks coming to you, if your house burns down, tough, but if we bother to answer the phone and there’s enough people trapped we might come, if not phone the local clowns they can throw some buckets of water on it”.

Have you read anything that’s been explained about why nurses are striking? It’s for the exact opposite reason.

Also, this is a last resort. I wouldn’t be surprised if many more nurses leave the profession; will you hold them accountable for patient deaths then? Who will you blame?

A&E and critical care nurses will not be striking. You conflate a strike with death so easily yet dismiss the working conditions of those who love to care for them but can’t do so safely and effectively and without detriment to their own wellbeing.

Take a look at that double standard. The public have a right to safety and health….yet nurses don’t?

It has always been that workers are allowed to strike. It isn’t illegal. Are there any adverse working conditions under which you think striking would be justified, or are you just against it no matter what? And if so, what would you do if you were in such a situation?

So, if you have it your way, here is what will happen. We will burn out and leave permanently. Then what? IMO you should consider a strike as fair warning, as should the government.

I find the lack of compassion here from some people disgusting.

pointythings · 22/12/2022 19:33

Nurses are already leaving. Taking early retirement, returning to the countries they originally came from, leaving the NHS and working as agency staff where they earn much more and cost the NHS much more. Not enough nurses are being trained because of the cost.

Nurses are in demand in many wealthy countries around the world and they will vote with their feet. The shortage of nurses is increasing, so anyone saying they won't leave is delusional.

DuncinToffee · 22/12/2022 19:35

ThisAgainForTheMillionthTime · 22/12/2022 19:15

I totally agree with you and think these people are in the wrong jobs if they think more pay is more important than peoples lives. There are bound to be lives lost because of these strikes. How they can stand on their picket lines and live with that on their conscience I really don’t know.
Lots of people want better conditions. Imagine if fire fighters did the same thing -“ no fire trucks coming to you, if your house burns down, tough, but if we bother to answer the phone and there’s enough people trapped we might come, if not phone the local clowns they can throw some buckets of water on it”.

We should just pay them with claps and banging pots Xmas Biscuit

DuncinToffee · 22/12/2022 19:38

Care staff deserve more, they are only paid a fraction of a nurse's salary.

Here is novel idea, pay both professions a decent wage.

It's not a race to the bottom

noblegiraffe · 22/12/2022 19:41

DuncinToffee · 22/12/2022 18:20

In June 2017 309 MPs voted to give nurses a proper pay rise. 323 MPs voted against it, including every Tory MP except one.

When the result of the vote was announced & the Tories found they had succeeded in blocking the nurses pay rise, they cheered.

twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1603433860796145665?t=FnxI8hswUs77soUEaPa-_g&s=19

That was utterly disgusting behaviour and they should be ashamed.

clarepetal · 22/12/2022 19:49

Yes it's easy to say how would you feel if someone you cared about died as a result of the strikes?
But.

How many people have already died because of the ridiculous conditions?

And will continue to die if conditions do not improve?

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 19:58

"I totally agree with you and think these people are in the wrong jobs if they think more pay is more important than peoples lives."

Lives are already lost because of poor working conditions and poor public health education. The younger generation won't want to enter healthcare because of the poor pay/working conditions. Recruiting has slowed right down. Hospitals are running understaffed.

Also, Hospital staff are still working, ambulances are still attending jobs.

What would you suggest they do instead of striking?

Clavinova · 22/12/2022 20:08

DuncinToffee
In June 2017 309 MPs voted to give nurses a proper pay rise. 323 MPs voted against it, including every Tory MP except one.
When the result of the vote was announced & the Tories found they had succeeded in blocking the nurses pay rise, they cheered

In fact, Jeremy Corbyn's amendment to the Queen's Speech in June 2017 specified all public sector workers not just nurses or NHS staff, and it was the DUP MPs who were accused of cheering in any case.

NHS staff in England were awarded a pay rise in March 2018 -

Hundreds of thousands of NHS staff are set to receive pay rises of between 9% and 29% over the next three years...

All of the more than 1 million personnel working for the NHS in England will receive at least a 6.5% increase...

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/21/nhs-staff-65-pay-rise-deal-backed-by-healthcare-unions

Clavinova · 22/12/2022 20:11

Tim Farron accused DUP MPs of “cheering” while they withheld pay from public servants

YorkiePud25 · 22/12/2022 20:11

I'm a mental health nurse working on an Inpatient Unit. Over the past few weeks, staffing has been dangerously low because management couldn't care less about patient safety whilst they're sat at home on weekends and nights. And we didn't get to strike as we didn't meet the threshold.
A pay rise would be great, I'm a trained professional providing life saving care. Yet could earn more and have better work life balance working in a supermarket. But the strikes are more about understaffing, patient safety and why the hell we can't retain nurses or support workers. The media has skewed it to make nurses and paramedics look greedy - we get paid nowhere near the averages the news claims. We just want to be able to do our job safely. Otherwise who is going to pay my bills when I'm suspended because a patient died on a severely understaffed shift that I happened to be I'm charge of?

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 20:15

Just gonna leave this here...

Clavinova · 22/12/2022 20:25

Just gonna leave this here...

I thought band 1 had been scrapped?

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 20:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 20:59

Clavinova · 22/12/2022 20:25

Just gonna leave this here...

I thought band 1 had been scrapped?

Yes I believe that's correct, band 1 was scrapped in 2018 (not my video but I think it explains why 3% is a lay cut well).

And that's before we go into changes to unsocial payment rules on section 2, changes to pension so it's now an average wage over the years instead of final pension salary, increased pension contributions and increased retirement ages.

SnackSizeRaisin · 22/12/2022 21:04

loveisagirlnameddaisy · 21/12/2022 15:44

Is the NHS underfunded or wasteful, or both?

If it's wasteful, why is this rarely spoken about in serious terms?

The NHS is actually very efficient and good value for money. It's also under funded compared to what other western countries pay into their health systems. Of course there is always some waste. But there would be a lot more waste under a private system as there would be huge amounts of extra paperwork.

DuncinToffee · 22/12/2022 21:11

clavinova, here is a chart for you

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/chart-of-the-week-what-has-happened-to-nhs-staff-pay-since-2010

figures show again that NHS staff pay remained lower in real terms in 2021/22 than it was in 2010/11

user1964097 · 22/12/2022 21:15

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 20:59

Yes I believe that's correct, band 1 was scrapped in 2018 (not my video but I think it explains why 3% is a lay cut well).

And that's before we go into changes to unsocial payment rules on section 2, changes to pension so it's now an average wage over the years instead of final pension salary, increased pension contributions and increased retirement ages.

DH worked for a large global private company and the pension was changed very similarly to the NHS pension at about the same time so pension changes weren't just confined to public sector jobs.

Enbite · 22/12/2022 21:34

As a previous Tory voter and someone who supported them with Brexit and throughout lockdowns, who lives in a typically tory area I have changed my stance and now say GET THEM OUT!

Since Boris was removed things have spiralled totally out of control. Friends are now having to pay hundreds more on their mortgages a month, I haven’t been able to get prompt medical care for my sick children, I’ve had to fight to get antibiotics and I’m now genuinely scared about my elderly relatives who don’t live nearby. What happens if they have a fall etc.

So far we can cope with the bill increases but the country has gone to absolute shit. I don’t really agree with medics striking it puts us all at risk but things are now so bad that even I can see they have no choice.

Truss was a moron and Sunak has absolutely no idea what it means to struggle financially so we will get nowhere with him.

I used to like my local Tory MP. He’s youngish and always out and about taking selfies in the area. Done a lot for us but now I can see he’s got this nice new job after supporting Sunak, flying all over the world raising his profile etc but I haven’t seen any word from him on the strikes, not on social media at least. He seems more interested in his career than the people he serves.

Sunak is a self serving snake. He only took a stand against Boris when he saw his chance to further his career.

Time to get them all out.

Undomesticated678 · 22/12/2022 21:35

DH worked for a large global private company and the pension was changed very similarly to the NHS pension at about the same time so pension changes weren't just confined to public sector jobs.

I'm aware many sectors, including the military and police who can't strike had pensions changed in a similar way around the same time. I'm aware many sectors have also had real term pay cuts and benefit cuts and I think they also deserve a lot better than what they are currently getting.

But this does not mean that the NHS can't stand up and fight for a better service and better working conditions which will ultimately improve patient care, public's health. The government rely on health care workers (all health care workers including private sector and private nursing homes) to do what is morally right.

As I have already mentioned multiple times, ambulances are still responding to C1 and some C2 calls. Calls that on a normal working day will go unanswered because they are tied up elsewhere.

noblegiraffe · 22/12/2022 22:01

Since Boris was removed things have spiralled totally out of control.

Since? This strike is 12 years in the making.

pointythings · 22/12/2022 22:16

Since Boris was removed things have spiralled totally out of control.

If you think Boris was any good, you're part of the problem.
If you can't see that all of this started in 2010, you're part of the problem.
If you voted for Brexit, you're part of the problem.

Your buyer's remorse is hollow.

Odessafile · 22/12/2022 22:59

44 out of 219 NHS trusts are striking. I'm in favour of it although my trust voted against. To hear the talk on this thread you'd think we'd all dropped tools.
Funnily enough on the day of the strike I watched 5 + ambulances sit outside A/E as I ate my lunch. They even had a table with a tea urn on it outside. A/E was rammed and managers were trying to cadge staff from everywhere else, including my unit (crit care). Sadly we were short and extremely busy. Fact is strike or no strike things are bad.

amoobaa · 22/12/2022 23:09

Wow. You don’t speak for me. Don’t assume your views are shared by everyone who has gone through the unspeakable trauma of watching a loved one die whilst waiting for an ambulance.

I watched my Dad die when I was in my 20s and will never forget the horror of his final moments, whilst waiting for that ambulance to arrive.

There was no strike action that night. But if we had been made to wait longer due to strikes, I can only imagine the impact it would have had on my mental health. I’d just been discharged from hospital after undergoing a craniotomy a few weeks before he died. I would have spent the rest of my life wondering ‘what if’… what if he could have been saved if only they had come quicker?

What if… what if… what if…

My Mum was in pieces as we waited in the ‘relatives room’- the exact same room she and my Dad had sat in when my sister died in that same hospital.

But grief doesn’t give me the right to point the finger at anyone I please.

Surely you realise they are striking for a reason? Have you considered the reasons they are striking? Have you considered who put them in that position to start with? Why aren’t you angry with the people whose decisions have led to this strike action?

Yes we need them to stop striking, so LET THEM STOP. They are not doing this for fun.

I’ve been watching politicians, who know nothing about the work nurses do, spout vile nonsense on tv and tell us that nurses are not concerned about patient safety on strike days…

They are worried about patient safety, EVERY SINGLE DAY… and that concern is contributing significantly to these strikes.

Why are you focussing on the instances when strike action contributes to pressure on services and ignoring the constant pressure on services that is creating the need for NHS workers to strike in the first place?

I almost died last Thursday due to haemorrhaging during a miscarriage. Last Thursday was a strike day.

I called 999 and they put me on hold. I can tell you exactly what it felt like to be in need of emergency medical attention, when a strike significantly affected services. They initially told me an ambulance could be ‘several hours’.

I called my mum, my wife, my best friend and none of them picked up.

I started to feel nauseous and dizzy, my vision and hearing were becoming distorted… I thought FUCK. What if I pass out and die and nobody comes? My 22 month old son is going to be all on his own. He’ll be completely traumatised.

In order to get off the toilet, to leave my flat, to alert someone (anyone!) I was haemorrhaging, I had three maxi incontinence pads on and I still bled through my jeans in minutes. I would have died without medical intervention. And without finding a neighbour, I would have been alone with my toddler.

I called 999 three times before they sent paramedics. Who were incredible. As were the staff in A&E and the entire team who performed emergency surgery and gave me two blood transfusions.

I am not angry with staff who are striking… because it is not their actions creating this shit show. It is the poor choices and lack of action by the government.

If I had died, no matter how angry or sad or devastated or unfair it would have felt/ been… it would have had nothing to do with the people striking and everything to do with the reasons why they are striking- issues not of their making.

They don’t want to strike. They have family too. They are humans who may need medical attention themselves, just like the rest of us. It’s dangerous for all of us when they strike.

So let’s think about why they are striking and who has the power to stop the strikes.

If someone I love dies as a result of strikes, the people with blood on their hands will not be the NHS staff, working day in, day out, to preserve life, but the people who drove them to strike.

My grief would not change that. The depth of my emotions, no matter how great, cannot change facts. You don’t get to re-write reality because something terrible and unfair is happening to you.

This isn’t a game. This isn’t a joke. Everyone who needs emergency medical care is at risk. So it is absolutely vital that solutions are based on reality, not misplaced blame, fuelled by fear, greed and ignorance.

When I was bleeding to death I needed emergency medical intervention. If the people I needed hadn’t turned up, then as far as I’m concerned, the blame lies with the government, who have left NHS workers feeling that the least worst option was to take strike action.

The RCN says that unfairly low pay in their profession is driving chronic understaffing, putting patients at risk and leaving nursing staff overworked, underpaid and undervalued.

Your answer is to keep pushing them over the edge? And if they dare to stand up for themselves and their patients, you’ll blame them for the consequences of strike action?

What about all the nurses who have left their profession? Are you going to go and knock on their doors and tell them people are dying because they left their jobs? That you’ve decided they have a duty to keep working, regardless of their own well-being, free will and despite the working conditions?

I assume you are a nurse? And if not, I assume you will be training as a nurse and spending the rest of your life working for the NHS? You won’t be intentionally letting people die through your own selfish lack of action? Surely if people are dying, the least you can do is become a nurse and accept any working conditions thrown at you? When lives are at risk, surely all your own needs, limitations, job preferences go straight out the window and you just do what has to be done? The irony is, that’s exactly what so many NHS workers end up doing on a daily basis.

Your entire argument seems to be based on playing on people’s emotions, “You’ll soon be agreeing with me when you or a loved one dies”. Well here I am… devastated by grief and yet I disagree with you entirely.

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