Re Ambulance/ nurse strikes

[TheWindIsChanging]

The last thread reached 1000 messages so assume that means it automatically closes any thread so thought I would continue the debate. My view is that it is unreasonable for any person in charge of a person's life to simply down tools regardless of pay issues. I wouldn't disagree pay is too low but so are many jobs yet not all jobs carry the responsibility of saving lives which will be lost during the strikes.
It's no great shock the usual suspects are screaming about the tories again waving tiny fists around red faced incandescent with rage. The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral which happened in the 70s further decreasing quality of life for all of us, not just the NHS workers.
Inflation is the main issue that causes issues with wages, and the reason for this is principally covid lockdowns which ( cue the drumroll) were brought in to protect the useless NHS... the irony that this same "service" is now complaining about economic problems which it helped to instigate is hilarious. I can't remember a single year in the last 20 where it wasn't nearly "bursting at the seems" and given the amount of tax payers money disappearing into it like the metaphorical black hole perhaps time it was scrapped. I don't see these same issues in other countries..a healthcare worker is not a typical profession as the basic goal is to save lives not abandoning ship. As others have said, all very well to type YABU, but I suspect the wind would change quickly if it was a relative who died as a consequence of these disgusting strikes which will cost lives make no mistake about it. That said, the same people raging about the state of the economy were labelling anyone not supporting lockdowns as a " granny killer" which anyone with an IQ over 70 could see would lead to this mess.

Making nursing a profession that required a degree is also part of the issue. You can't expect people to get into £60,000 worth of debt and then do a job that doesn't pay that much more than non-degree jobs.

Same as with teaching. We have reached a point where public sector workers have put up with either very low, or non exsistant, pay rises for the last ten years. Those workers are now underpaid by roughly 20% and the goodwill has run out. Add in that nursing is very stressful.

Fund training, possibly depending on working in the public sector for a number of years, and improve the pay. Otherwise expect there not to be a nurse for you or a teacher for your child.

Nursing is either a profession or a calling - profession means being paid adequately for your skills and knowledge -calling means simpering and smiling and being thrown crumbs for always putting the patient first and having the gov take the piss—

They should have gone on strike 20 years ago and we would have fully staffed wards now and a half decent NHS

They said the nationalised railways were not fit for purpose, too, privatised them and created railways that are not fit for purpose and a society with ever greater inequality. I wouldn’t trust the fuckers in power to improve anything but their own private wealth funds.

But if nurses and paramedics are so vitally important, why aren’t we valuing them more?!

Inflation is surging worldwide so implying it is down to " furlough" is disingenuous. You say most NHS staff weren't furloughed but getting a GP appointment as one eg has been close to impossible for 3 years as many of them seem to have been at home ( and still are).

Most economists predicted economic oblivion due to lockdowns and now we are seeing it. The reason for these lockdowns was to "protect the NHS".

You are aware we have had multiple overhauls in the 16 years I've worked for the NHS? Bringing in Foundation Trusts, entirely different funding routes via CCGs etc?

What evidence do you have about Unions "kicking off"? I lived these changes and have no recollection of any such thing happening.

I find people often suggest an overhaul when they really just want someone to magically manage to provide more resources with less funding. It is a very naive viewpoint.

DP is a paramedic, about 15% of his team are off with stress long-term. It's going to be more and for longer unless something is sorted. They used to get 15 mins unofficial break between jobs (often lasting 4 hours)to recover and regroup. No more. It's so harsh. Watched a child nearly die- next job. Shouted at for 3 hours by a paranoid schizophrenic - next job, get called out for a fucking ear infection - next job and on and on. Often no break is given for a 12 hour shift.

I agree with this, especially your last line.

The reality is increasing wages across the board would lead to an inflation death spiral

No, it's the other way round. Wages need to be increased because inflation is high. Not inflation is high because everyone is having big wage increases - because they haven't have they? So it can't possibly be wage increases that are causing high inflation.

Are you suggesting you would like your nurses to be less qualified? Or that you would like them to study to degree level but not to gain the qualification and pay in line with that?

@Stompythedinosaur I didn't say no-one had spoken about waste, I asked why it wasn't discussed in serious terms? Everyone screams about evil Tory underfunding. Why aren't we having additional conversations about cutting waste - something that can actually be done without too much Govt intervention? If those conversations are taking place in the public domain it would be interesting to read about them.

Virtually every person or at least the vast majority of people on this board think their pay is too low. If everyone went on strike nothing would function ( not that in 2022 much does anyway). The main difference is, a person saving lives simply not turning up for work ends up killing people... I'd have though you would have more compassion for the sick and dying considering you were one of the chief proponents of lockdowns. You also supported the notion that all healthcare staff who weren't vaccinated should be fired from their roles in the NHS so you wonder why there are huge shortages..how's that working out?

I'd have though you would have more compassion for the sick and dying considering you were one of the chief proponents of lockdowns.

Eh? You are talking bollocks, mate.

If you believe the lockdowns were genuinely to “protect” the NHS, rather than prevent its total collapse and ensuing chaos at a highly inconvenient time, I guess you’ll believe anything.

Since wages have been stifled for the last ten years it's simplistic to claim that higher wages alone cause inflation.

I support the strikes and if I'm one of those people the OP is hurling insults at in her opening post, I couldn't care less. I'm only bothered about being criticised by people with a modicum of intelligence whose opinion I care about.

It's commonly accepted increasing wages across all sectors does nothing bar worsen a current inflation crisis. Posting one economist's views on twitter who disagrees with the vast majority who say the opposite proves nothing.

I also think it's about time that the ageing population got used to idea that their exhausted post-menopausal daughters would 'care' for them while they are being kept alive beyond their natural life spans.

Make it a man's job.

Because I'm sick of the world where women are expected to:

1. care for very elderly parents and their endless medical appointments and procedures when they have way beyond 'life limiting' illnesses
2. care simultaneously for adult DC and their financial and emotional needs
3. care free of charge for grandchildren because their parents can't afford to pay for childcare
4. work full-time because you can't claim state pension till 66 or 67
5. run a house either single-handed or effectively single-handed

I think I'm done with it all on behalf of us all. And why shouldn't female nurses and paramedics get a decent wage?

Overthebow

I agree with you. I am starting to think it's time we had different system as the NHS just isn't working anymore.

A major drain on NHS money is payments to the PFI companies, which Labour used to build new hospitals. The interest on the loans is higher than if the Government had just borrowed on the books.

In some cases, not only are hospital trusts having to pay the mortgage, so to speak, they may also have to pay ground rent, as the PFI company had ownership of the lease thrown in, to sweeten the deal. The Government may say, "Oh, but we've given them 20 billion this year," that's not actually what's going into healthcare.

I would love you to come and work a shift with me, I am a senior nurse on a surgical ward. Initially nurses pay was pretty poor but that was before a degree was required and we took on more responsibility. So, yes I think we should have our pay restored.

I did vote to strike and this is considering I have a DH with a chronic condition managed by the NHS, and a DD awaiting onwards referral.

Not one of us went into this profession because we want people to die, we do care. BUT people are dying every day, either unnoticed as they have waited to long for a procedure or because of ambulance delay, I could go on but you get the picture.

I have written about this before I really wish the RCN would not have put pay front and centre, myself and my colleagues are trying to highlight how unsafe the NHS currently is. Higher wages will help, it will encourage people into the the profession and help retain those who would rather look at less stressful employment. Better staffing ratios improve safety, reduce mortality and improves job satisfaction. If a job is difficult to recruit into, often, pay is looked at to make it more attractive. Why would you consider nursing when you can see how little the government cares for them?

It is accepted that harm is occurring on a daily basis, at best, this could lead to life changing injury at worst death. We have tried to highlight to everyone who will listen, how dangerous shifts are. Nothing is done and no one will listen. We are literally making awful decisions daily. Do I give the dying patient pain relief or the patient with sepsis anti biotics or help that patient access the toilet first? You choose. I can honestly say these decisions haunt me. It is not the care I want to provide and it's not acceptable.
A relative shouted at me the other day as her mum needed the toilet and had been ringing, by the time I got there she had been incontinent. Whilst I didn't appreciate her shouting I completely understand and apologised. This is basic care and we can't provide it.

This and variations of it are happening daily on every ward in every hospital but, sometimes the outcome is worse. Delayed observations can cause harm, but how can I ensure this is done when I have so much else to do?
I never feel like I have done a good job and am constantly apologising and getting shouted at, I get it and I am sorry but, nurses are the only ones available, managers are nowhere to be seen.

The Tories have been dismantling the NHS for years. I have 17 years experience and many skills, I am resilient but cannot in good conscience continue like this. If there is no positive change in the next year, I will look for another job as will many of my colleagues.

So yes, striking is the right thing to do and you can see in plain sight the consequence of this, what you cannot see is what is happening in the NHS unless you are up close and personal.

With all due respect, I don't think you understand basic economics at all.

Stompythedinosaur - I said pay for the training and increase pay. That way you make the profession more desirable and it will hopefully reverse the huge vacancy levels and then reduce burn out for the existing staff.

I see you copied and pasted your message from the previous thread as everyone ignored you. The bit I find hilarious is that you think the NHS is "useless" but are then frothing about the strikes. Surely you would think that a good thing as they won't be getting paid and if they were useless anyway not working won't make any difference. Also, I think you are about confused about what "saving the NHS" was about. It wasn't to save NHS workers. It was to save people who might need NHS treatment so no reason for the workers themselves to be grateful and uncomplaining to you about it.

It's commonly accepted increasing wages across all sectors does nothing bar worsen a current inflation crisis.

Well no, it isn't. It's a theory. There are many others. A quick Google will tell you the situation is far more complex than 'one maverick economist vs all the rest' - Wage push inflation is by no means a proven concept, it's just one that is convenient for hardcore capitalists. Maybe you should do a bit more reading.

Why don't you think it is being discussed in serious terms? There have been many, many attempts to improve efficiency, and evidence that there has been some success, though not enough to counterbalance the massive budget cuts.

A quick google would have been able to tell you about this, but in case it is helpful here is a handy summary of all the efficiency drives in the last decade. Here is a whole page of articles about efficiency in the NHS.