Another dog kills. When is something going to be done?

[ofwarren]

AIBU to think that there needs to be a dog licence or at least SOMETHING put in place to try and prevent deaths by these dogs?
I was not at all surprised to read the breed..
"The dog, a large black XL bully cross cane corso breed, was seized by officers and has been destroyed."

metro.co.uk/2022/12/20/woman-dies-after-being-mauled-in-dog-attack-in-her-own-home-17970433/?ito=socialmetrouktwitter

If I went and asked 100 random people should all dogs be muzzled I'd be very surprised if any of them said all dogs need muzzling

I'm sure 100% of bully XL dog owners would say they don't need muzzling and 100% of normal people would say they did.

Dog owners can't be trusted to make objective decisions about their precious pouches. They're never going to consider their dogs to be part of the problem.

I said random people. I know people who don't own dogs and have no interest in dogs who would agree they don't all need muzzling

Just ban the keeping of dogs as pets. There's no reason for it to be allowed. People can have cats or goldfish or hamsters or gerbils but not dogs as they cause too many problems.

And then you woke up

I had a cat who made herself comfy on the towel shelf in the bathroom once. She blinked, the light from the landing caught her eyes and made them glow - cue me nearly falling backwards down the stairs. She would not have given the tiniest shit until the next mealtime, of that I am certain. So don’t tell me cats cause no harm….

I detest hamsters’ bottoms <shudder>

Therefore I wish them all to be banned. Or to be forced to wear little trews.

There has certainly been a large increase in the number of such deaths.

People killed by dogs in the UK.
1980s - 3
1990s - 4
2000s - 16
2010s - 27
2020s - 16 (to date)

I’m a dog exploiter but I have to say, I’m quite into the idea of muzzles in public on anything larger than a certain size. Maybe 22kg?

I know most dogs are lovely, and most dog disagreements are pretty short lived and harmless, but I’m seeing so many people inadequately looking after giant, fighting dogs. Leaving aside how no one needs a bull or bear fighting breed in the UK, especially not a city, how can small women or kids hold on to 30kg+ of pure muscle if it decides to go? You regularly see them in pathetic collars, with weedy leashes. At least put them in a harness.

I love dogs but I will leave a park if I see a bully (XL or not) and cross the road to avoid them being walked on the pavement. I fear for my dog when we come across them in the park - although thankfully this is rare. My husband pointed out that the kind of people who have these dogs don’t exercise them, they parade them round the estate, shitting everywhere.

But more legislation isn’t the answer - there’s no point when there’s no capacity to enforce existing laws.

All dogs are supposed to be chipped - so why aren’t they? Breeders having more than 1 litter a year are supposed to be licensed. Are they all? Nope. Tail docking and ear clipping is illegal, yes you see it all over.

There’s no appetite to spend money on any enforcement, so on we go, with things getting worse and worse.

My experience with people muzzling dogs is that they then belief its perfectly safe to put those dogs into situations they would normally avoid if the dog were not muzzled.

This typically causes a deterioration in dog behaviour because the dog is more stressed, and eventually, management fails, dog gets loose, rips muzzle off (short of nailgunning them to certain breeds heads, there are no muzzles a dog cannot get off with relative ease once loose!) and now you have a stressed out unsocial, frustrated dog...

A big heavy dog wearing a muzzle can still do some serious damage, they tend to 'muzzle punch', attempting to bite, some can even push the muzzle hard up against something and bite, though obviously this is front teeth nippy type biting rather than the back slicing teeth or the canine puncturing teeth... A 60kg+ dog to the ribs then smashing its head into you as you lie on the ground is still going to kill the very small or very frail/elderly etc.

We would also likely see a sharp increase in small 'safe' breeds ie, those that don't need a muzzle, being allowed more freedom to run up to larger dogs and yap, bounce, bite, actively attack... and again, if you own a dog that this happens to regularly, you're going to see a deterioration in behaviour unless you can avoid walking your dog in places where this happens.

So ultimately we will have responsible owners of larger breeds unable to walk their dogs, more antisocial dogs, and still those who are actually the problem, will leave their dogs unmuzzled as and when it suits.

Every single dog that has been aggressive to my dog in her 2 years on this earth has been a small or tiny breed. Stupid, ineffective owners.

I see your point - I hadn’t thought about this additional behaviour. But then what is the solution? I’d certainly feel happier for my dog if large, aggressive breeds were muzzled, if not for my kids.

And I’m a lifelong dog exploiter, with experience of several breeds (although never a dick extension breed).

Maybe we need to extend the banned breed list to include all bull / fighting dogs. There are plenty of animals it’s illegal to keep in residential areas, so why are dogs exempt?

I know not all bullies / akitas / cane corsos etc are nasty, but I’d wager that the crossover between these breeds and contemptible scum owners is pretty high. We (sadly) can’t do anything to the owners, so can’t we control the problem by getting rid of the dogs?

Yes, but a swift kick and they’re not a problem anymore.

I don’t think you’ll be able to get rid of a cane corso as easily.

The owners are obviously to blame, but we can’t get rid of them, unfortunately.

I really wish I knew and its something me and my colleagues/other dog professionals have been debating and discussing for the last 20 years really.

Banning other breeds also doesn't help, you have to ban crossbreeds, DNA testing is not yet there so you have to go on appearances, hence the 'type' issue... (not an issue with the other three breeds banned because they didn't exist here at the time of the original ban).

As soon as you determine 'type' based on measurements, you are into territory where people buy a perfectly legal puppy.. and then it hits 6 months to 12 months old and suddenly has grown into illegal dog territory! In no other aspect of UK law can you become a criminal overnight like this!

Then you get dogs seized in the street who have never done anything wrong, with perfectly responsible owners, and the suffering goes on (dogs in secure secret kennels, not being handled or exercised, behaviour suffers, mental health suffers, physical health suffers, costs the taxpayer and the owner a fortune IF they actually get the dog back at all..).

Then off the baddies go, get another breed, turn that into a lethal weapon!

Regulating dog training/behaviour practitioners would help.
Banning (or legislating out via welfare requirements, say puppy farms need 1 employed person per 3 adult dogs, would cost too much to do, easy to check) puppy farms.
Mandatory training classes perhaps, including a 'before you get your puppy'... though that still won't catch those that buy from dodgy mates, it would give the legit people access to good information/education and something (certificate) to use to prove legit ownership, perhaps get a discount on insurance or some other 'carrot'...

Mandatory training classes perhaps, including a 'before you get your puppy'... though that still won't catch those that buy from dodgy mates,

A catch up programme would be entirely appropriate, for people who find themselves owning a dog - for instance because an elderly parent has died / gone into a care home, or (as in my case) a friend could no longer look after their adult dog. There's no point penalising such people.

These schemes always have a few that slip through the net - just as some drive without a driving licence. But on the whole such a scheme would improve things.

It's hard to know how you'd catch people without a licence though - you don't want to create a system where vets are enforcing it so some people avoid the vets. A lot of the enforcement would have to be around making it illegal to sell dog to someone unlicenced (where any money changing hands, including adoption fees, counts as a sale, but not to criminalise Doris with dementia going into a care home and giving the dog to her friend).

It's less than a mile - the two streets are two streets apart from each other - they practically intersect (there's about 10 houses of another street between the two, which has the chip shop and corner shop)

Penyrheol - the area of Caerphilly - is a fairly deprived area but a very close knit community, the families probably would have known each other and it wouldn't surprise me if the dogs didn't come from the same breeder

Too many absolute bloody idiots are buying dogs (mainly since covid). I had a friend who bought a border collie off a dodgy breeder on a whim. She wanted to take it on long hikes. Obviously the dog spent the first 2 weeks biting her and being hyper. When she hired a trainer, the trainer basically told her off for doing NO research, and told her a puppy can’t do long walks because of their bones and also needs to sleep for many hours a day in a solid routine. Also that border collies need mental stimulation.

My friend came round my house whinging that the trainer was mean and “who does research before buying a dog anyway?!” 😂 I research before buying a new facewash!!! And she said if she’d known all that she wouldn’t have bought a dog.

After a few months she couldn’t cope with the dog (also her boyfriend was being aggressive to it) and rehomed it. Dog bit a child and got put down. Absolutely ridiculous story but sadly true. And my friend’s not an idiot on drugs and benefits, she has a PHD and a professional senior job.

I’m allergic to dogs and don’t feel comfortable around them. I hate that now every time I go to town they’re in every shop/cafe. I had a sneezing attack the other day after leaving a charity shop full of dogs, and some rude woman was like “I’ll avoid you, don’t want to catch whatever you have!”. It’s not Covid, it’s all the bloody dogs!

@Florenz i remember you from other dog threads
You think dogs should all just be killed and got rid off
Ridiculous

Yes, something like that, pre puppy classes/getting a rescue or second hand dog classes - of course regulation of trainers has to happen first.

There are places where you have to pass a national test to train, and where you have to pass one to own a dog (not sure where now, too much pain today for that).

We'd have to put the onus on buyers to ensure they're buying from a legal seller AND sellers to ensure they're selling to a legal owner - if you do it just one way (for example, it is illegal to sell a cropped dog but it is not illegal to buy one, you just claim you had no idea it was done in this country/say it is a rescue... all's well...)... then theres wiggle room!

It needs careful thought and input from actual dog people, unfortunately this government is not remotely good at listening to anyone, never mind dog people, and we are trying!

You have won the award for the most stupid response

Yes, absolutely.
It's easy to get sentimental over animals. Pet animals are selectively bred to be sycophantic and neotenous. Too often people come out with the 'love my animals more than I love other people' nonsense, especially where needy humans like children or asylum-seekers are concerned.
When murders or disasters happen, there's always some twit asking if the family dog was traumatised too.
Keeping carnivorous pets has a massive impact on the environment as well, but no politician dares to go near yhe issue.
I would class myself as an animal lover, but that extends to the creatures that go through hell to end up in tins of petfood.
Animals are wonderful, fascinating creatures, but I don't flatter myself with their enforced capitvity in my home.

I’m in Switzerland and they outlawed a large number of dogs after some maulings. In my kanton, there are a few borderline breeds that require a license issued by the police, like Rotties. But all pit derivatives are illegal and my kanton have sadly included staffs in that, though other Kantons haven’t.
We also pay for a dog license witch funds the ample bins and free poo bags everywhere. It’s chf165 a year, @£150. Expensive? Yes, but there’s hardly any shite around.

Not stupid at all.
But unrealistic - at least until the prevailing opinion that pet ownership is acceptable changes (and it will).
However, it needs to be made a lot more difficult and only one per household.
Too many people have more dogs than they can reasonably cope with.
And there need to be strict rules about them being in public spaces (and private spaces open to the public like shops).
You don't need to take dogs into shops but people with allergies need to shop there - also those who work there shouldn't have to deal with dogs.
Dogs in offices is even more unreasonable.

£150 for a dog licence doesn't seem very expensive to me, especially for Switzerland.

@Isleoftights I think that's the wikipedia data based on reprted inquests. It's a problematic source as most inquests aren't reported (they are public but a publication of the outcome will only be reported if a journalist attends) meaning the reason you get fewer inquest reported deaths from the 80s is only that we don't have web-based newspaper files to collate for that period. There may have been many more death certificates filed which list biting as a possible cause of death, but equally a person may be bitten and then die of related trauma or heart attack meaning only those causes end up on the death certificate. It's only really for the last two decades we have any good data on the prevalence of deaths caused by dogs, but it's unlikely they have been going up as much as that list suggests. That doesn't mean the current level of deaths and more worryingly biting is OK at all obviously and it may well be getting worse - this year has been especially tragic and it does look like more than a statistical blip. Just that sadly there were probably a lot more deaths in the 80s than are counted there.

We have a big problem with inaccurate and incomplete data on dog related injury/death here.

Hospitals do not record such things in a standardized manner so in some places all dog related injuries are recorded as dog bites.

Doesn't matter if the dog tried to remove your arm, or you fell over the family yorkie whilst drunkenly dancing round the room at 3am.

We also do next to no investigation on the dog (ie the dog as evidence) - so the dog is typically destroyed and then the most that will happen is a vet examines the body and a DLO will determine whether the dog was an illegal breed or not.

If we could *remove dogs (where safe to do so, and that depends on the right people on scene at the time...) to an assessment facility and treat them as evidence whilst alive, we might find out more useful information.

Lots of people scoff at that, because they don't grasp the depth of information that can be found.

Dogs who were starved ...
Dogs who following bite pattern examination, were found NOT to be the dog that inflicted the bite at all
Dogs found to be suffering injury
Dogs found to have ingested drugs
Dogs used to cover human abuse of other humans (usually children, not always)

Dogs are often used as a scapegoat: going out equipped with a knife, could show intent to harm someone - going out with a dog, theres wiggle room there. If it can be shown to a court that the dog was intentionally used as a weapon (rather than simply 'allowed to be out of control') sentencing could be very different.

Dogs take the blame for shitty parenting: where a parent would be considered negligent, neglectful, dangerous... for leaving a loaded gun in a childs reach, or leaving them sat next to an open fire... for example, having a dog taught to behave in a dangerous manner, neglected, untrained, abused to the point of exhibiting dangerous behaviour, tends not to result in the same conclusion, and people consider punishment delivered in the dog being destroyed, whilst the person has 'suffered enough'...

If people could just stop being dicks...

( * For the lunatics who will now state I want to save all the savage killer beasties who eat small children - no. I do mean remove, assess, euthanise where appropriate which for fatalities is almost always the case.)