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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Another dog kills. When is something going to be done?

261 replies

ofwarren · 20/12/2022 15:15

AIBU to think that there needs to be a dog licence or at least SOMETHING put in place to try and prevent deaths by these dogs?
I was not at all surprised to read the breed..
"The dog, a large black XL bully cross cane corso breed, was seized by officers and has been destroyed."

metro.co.uk/2022/12/20/woman-dies-after-being-mauled-in-dog-attack-in-her-own-home-17970433/?ito=socialmetrouktwitter

OP posts:
Soothsayer1 · 22/12/2022 12:35

Tyrantosaurus · 20/12/2022 19:07

Think dogs like XL bullies should be banned.

But like someone else said, there's still other breeds like German shepherds so this problem can never fully be avoided. A complete ban on bigger breeds would be very unpopular

Anything which restricts dog ownership will reduce the profits of the pet industry and they will lobby hard to stop this
We should not be keeping large powerful predators as domestic pets

kc431 · 22/12/2022 12:52

“Licenses won’t do anything because the bad people won’t get one” is a stupid argument - should we get rid of driving licenses because there’s loads of criminals speeding around uninsured with no license? Imagine how much WORSE the roads would be without licenses and insurance requirements. I don’t see why we don’t have the same for dogs. Not only can they injure, they leave shit everywhere and are generally a nuisance if badly trained.

Soothsayer1 · 22/12/2022 13:09

kc431 · 22/12/2022 12:52

“Licenses won’t do anything because the bad people won’t get one” is a stupid argument - should we get rid of driving licenses because there’s loads of criminals speeding around uninsured with no license? Imagine how much WORSE the roads would be without licenses and insurance requirements. I don’t see why we don’t have the same for dogs. Not only can they injure, they leave shit everywhere and are generally a nuisance if badly trained.

I agree with you, the UK has a serious dog problem which needs to be addressed.
I also totally get your point about licences but I think one added problem is that the bad people with the bad dogs will keep them hidden away in a way that drivers can't keep cars hidden away...
if you take your car out on the road you are picked up on the ANPR but it's possible to keep a dog hidden away from authorities and they can still be a danger.
I don't know what the answer is but I think I would definitely support licencing.

FrostyPaws · 22/12/2022 13:38

So tragic and needless.

I don’t get why anyone would own an animal that had the power to literally turn around and kill them if it wanted to. I don’t even really like Staffies for this reason although I know they are popular on here.

I have a dog, so I’m not anti them at all in general, but he is small and if he ever turned on a person I’m confident I could overpower him easily. Can anyone say the same for a bully/German Shepard/mastiff type dog?

Regardless of how ‘friendly’ you think your dog is, it’s an animal at the end of the day and you can’t say for certain that if it gets spooked or unwell it won’t turn aggressive so for me it’s about whether or not you could deal with that if you had to.

OllytheCollie · 22/12/2022 13:40

@kc431 that argument doesn't quite work. We all know what is being licensed when you acquire a driving license - responsible driving behaviour. A license can only be acquired after you have a sat a test to show you can drive competently and you can lose your license if you either drive dangerously OR you fail to meet an objective standard which suggests you might drive dangerously e.g. you develop a medical condition which causes loss of consciousness or sight loss. In any situation where you drive a car without a license you are committing a criminal offence, easy to check by the police. It's true the law gets broken a lot but its easy to see a) why it is a good idea and b) how it can be enforced and is therefore a deterrent to non-licensed wannabe drivers. The difficulty with a dog 'license' is that showing everyone why it is a good idea and enforcing it are both hard. E.g. are you licensing that someone is a responsible dog owner? Or that they have just some minimal knowledge of animal welfare necessary before acquiring a dog? Mandatory training for dogs isn't like driving. Dogs are specific i.e. you build a relationship with one dog. I have a trained collie, but no idea how to handle my neighbours Jack Russell. In fact people thinking they can 'drive' dogs in general is a big part of the problem.

And once licensed how do you enforce it? Do you have strict liability that only people trained on that dog can walk it outside the house? Or is there a class of other professionals? Whatabout wider family members with whom the dog has a relationship? Can they all be licensed? There are some over the top suggestions on this thread re dogs never being walked off lead or without muzzles which I appreciate come from a place of fear which is understandable given the events of this year but disproportionate to the level of harm shown by most dogs. The difficulty with making licensing restrictions too stringent is it won't get popular support - which means in a country of dog-lovers a) it would never get legislated for and b) even if legislated will end up being the kind of minimal mandatory training requirement (watch this online workshop) which I fear could be worse than useless.

Don't get me wrong I am absolutely in favour of training for dog-owners and think it is irresponsible dog ownership not to get training advice. I have gone to a lot of training classes myself and would say whenever you get a new dog go to classes or get a trainer involved, even if you have done it all before lots of time, each dog is different and there is always more to learn. But I don't see the driving training metaphor mapping to dogs.

Mandatory training after any event - dog getting loose, dog bite, dog causing excessive barking - is brought to the attn of the police or local authority is sensible as at that point you have an owner with a motivation to do some work and like a speed awareness course there might be engagement.

Licenses just to ensure the owner knows they have duties to the animal add little to the duties all pet owners already have under the Animal Act. The law as it stands just isn't enforced well, but in the era of the internet we don't need a license to bring to people's attention the minimum level of welfare needs dogs have. People aren't keeping their dogs chained up outside or failing to exercise them out of ignorance, but indifference. Like any animal lover I would love to see the current law more severely enforced, but the small number of prosecutions taken against the large number of cases of abuse is because the police don't have time. That said perhaps if people could see how closely animal welfare and human welfare is aligned and if we prosecuted abusers more harshly we might deter some of the outcomes (distressed dogs, poor breeding) which increase the risks to humans in the future maybe public support for prosecutions would grow - this isn't just about saving ickle puppies, but also ensuring people don't unwittingly buy reactive, anxious dogs as pets, or that neighbourhoods don't live in fear of neglected, aggressive dogs who want to escape their conditions.

That and everything @WiddlinDiddlin said.

lieselotte · 22/12/2022 15:09

Another thing that might help is the police taking proper notice of dog on dog attacks. A dog that attacks other dogs may well go on to have a go at a human at some point. However, the police don't care (and to be fair probably don't have the resources. But that's another reason why we need dog wardens back).

WiddlinDiddlin · 22/12/2022 16:01

I do agree that dog on dog attacks should be taken more seriously, there is no evidence that aggression towards other dogs is related to aggression towards humans.

Dog owners are at higher risk of being bitten when splitting up a dog fight but this is accidental bites and they're as likely to be bitten by their own dog as by the other.

ElephantInTheKitchen · 22/12/2022 17:36

I agree that dog v dog attacks should be taken more seriously, at least when they cause actual injury (a bit of a scuffle / handbags at dawn with no actual biting or other injury is probably more common than people realise, and while undesirable it's within the boundaries of normal dog behaviour).

Dogs are entirely capable of telling the difference between a human and a dog though. Mine can tell the difference between a husky (absolutely fine) and a German shepherd (horrid, bark at it until it goes away).

ThisGirlNever · 23/12/2022 17:29

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-64078112

Husky killed a 3 month old baby.

surreygirl1987 · 23/12/2022 19:42

Oh gosh how awful.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 23/12/2022 21:22

Too often people come out with the 'love my animals more than I love other people' nonsense, especially where needy humans like children or asylum-seekers are concerned.

What the actual fuck?

WiddlinDiddlin · 24/12/2022 05:13

Re the Lincolnshire case... they were walking NINETEEN DOGS.... is that accurate? Or were they racing/training and had 19 dogs with them ... even so, if there genuinely were just one or two adults in charge of that many dogs and one of those was also responsible for the baby.. wow.

I wouldn't take a baby out to train/race/run even small two dog team, it involves the dogs being way out ahead of the musher on their lines, dogs being massively hyped up and over aroused, loads of risks of being knocked over, falling etc...

Literally nothing about that situation is safe to add a baby to.

ElephantInTheKitchen · 24/12/2022 08:44

A 19 dog sledding team has got to be pretty much a full time job to keep happy and healthy. Huskies are notorious for needing a lot of exercise, and a 19 dog sledding team isn't the sort of thing you can just get a dog walker in for.

They'd just had a baby 3 weeks ago; I wonder how much exercise the dogs had actually had and if this was their first proper exercise in over 3 weeks, and they were pretty much going stir crazy.

Years ago on holiday I went husky sledding. It was remarkable the difference before and after having had some exercise - before the run they were hyped up, barking, griping at each other and you certainly wouldn't have wanted to put your hand near one. After their run they were all perfectly nice animals, calm, and safe to go and say hello to and stroke.

Stomacharmeleon · 24/12/2022 10:08

What bothers me about the husky case is that the mother has agreed she was guilty of not looking after their baby properly and will of course get credit for plea and dad has not.
They had 19 dogs with them.
They are both at fault.
I hope both go to prison and dads are removed.
You can see by the pictures/ information they have released what was the priority and it wasn't their daughter!

DysonSpheres · 26/12/2022 07:04

Absolutely terrible. Poor little baby😢

This is why legislation needs to be brought in. For lack of commonsense individuals like this.

I mean, imagine going for a walk in the local woods either alone or with a young child in tow and being confronted with two people walking 19 dogs!! All energetic huskies who likely haven't been out for days or weeks. What a nightmare. Public safety, let alone their daughters never occurred to them.

Doubtless they were the 'none of our dogs have ever bitten' ' we're professionals' slogan type.

That said I do feel it for the mother. You don't recover from something like this, especially if you know it was partly due to your actions. I do feel sorry for her.

Florenz · 26/12/2022 15:02

There needs to be a massive crackdown on irresponsible dog ownership. Take dogs off people and ban them from owning or having dogs in their household for many years, or even for life. It's time that we prioritised people over dogs.

DysonSpheres · 26/12/2022 15:48

Agree @Florenz

caramac04 · 27/12/2022 10:37

@Florenz I agree. Far too many dogs are owned by idiots who like to be seen with a killing machine. They should not have a dog at all.
Also, there are owners of ‘small family dogs’ without a clue. I saw one yesterday, cockerpoo I think, very aggressive to my passive German Shepherd. The owner did call his dog and leash him but loudly telling his children that the dog is a nightmare with other dogs. That tells me the dog is untrained and there is a potential for injury to kids, dogs and that dog.
Again, should that owner have a dog? Little dogs can still bite. Dog ownership should be taken very seriously.

surreygirl1987 · 27/12/2022 10:41

Fully agree.

WiddlinDiddlin · 27/12/2022 13:50

DysonSpheres · 26/12/2022 07:04

Absolutely terrible. Poor little baby😢

This is why legislation needs to be brought in. For lack of commonsense individuals like this.

I mean, imagine going for a walk in the local woods either alone or with a young child in tow and being confronted with two people walking 19 dogs!! All energetic huskies who likely haven't been out for days or weeks. What a nightmare. Public safety, let alone their daughters never occurred to them.

Doubtless they were the 'none of our dogs have ever bitten' ' we're professionals' slogan type.

That said I do feel it for the mother. You don't recover from something like this, especially if you know it was partly due to your actions. I do feel sorry for her.

Dramatic leaps like this help no one ...

In this case, they were using a gated private woodland, with permission, to train and run dogs which means all dogs tethered/on leads/on the trace lines. They were not walking 19 dogs at all.

This will be something they do regularly, and it isn't something you do once in a blue moon, thats not how any athlete gets fit for competition.

One dog got loose, one hyper aroused, physically incredibly fast strong and fit dog - but again in a private area, and had the owner of the dog not been so negligent as to have a tiny baby with her...

It was a monumentally stupid thing to do, but the risk was to themselves and their own child, not to the public.

tabulahrasa · 27/12/2022 14:10

WiddlinDiddlin · 27/12/2022 13:50

Dramatic leaps like this help no one ...

In this case, they were using a gated private woodland, with permission, to train and run dogs which means all dogs tethered/on leads/on the trace lines. They were not walking 19 dogs at all.

This will be something they do regularly, and it isn't something you do once in a blue moon, thats not how any athlete gets fit for competition.

One dog got loose, one hyper aroused, physically incredibly fast strong and fit dog - but again in a private area, and had the owner of the dog not been so negligent as to have a tiny baby with her...

It was a monumentally stupid thing to do, but the risk was to themselves and their own child, not to the public.

The original reports were that it happened in the public car park. I haven’t seen anything saying otherwise.

Not that there’s be many people about though ad it was at 11 at night.

The reports were all very weirdly worded as well - the parents were arrested on the scene after they were informed about the incident by paramedics. That phrase was in multiple articles, which I thought was a really odd way of putting it, I wondered if they weren’t actually present.

It is definitely unusual that they were arrested on the scene, they tend to wait a bit when it’s the immediate relatives, because they’ve just witnessed something really traumatic and they often don’t charge parents at all.

So I kind of suspect it was way more than just being negligent with their baby, though obviously I don’t know anything more than anyone else.

DysonSpheres · 27/12/2022 15:14

Can you link to an article saying this @WiddlinDiddlin happy to stand corrected.

surreygirl1987 · 27/12/2022 15:31

Yeh , I read about it being in a carpark as well.

Stomacharmeleon · 27/12/2022 16:46

But they both own the dogs.
And why put your own very small child at risk? It almost makes it worse as they (as 'athlete' trainers) will know their capabilities.
And why has the mum pled and the father not? And wants to go to trial?
I hope all the dogs have been removed, I hope they both go to prison. It seems like a very calculated attempt to shirk responsibility and get Back to the thing they are bothered about- the dogs.
She has pled guilty and will get a suspended sentence as the traumatised mother.
He will blame her.
It's disgusting.

WiddlinDiddlin · 27/12/2022 17:21

Sorry I had to hunt through loads of newspaper reports as only one referred to them 'walking 19 dogs' and that sounded weird AF... then some other more local paper articles the comments made it clear they were exercising teams of dogs in a gated woodland area they had permission to use, to run the dogs behind scooters/rigs.

It is horrific, they absolutely WOULD have known how fit, how fast, how strong and how high a prey drive these dogs would have. I can understand 'pet' dog owners of sibes/mals etc not realising it (they bloody should and I question who the hell breeds and sells them to those who do not), but these people were involved in the sport side of things and owned/worked with/handled so many they cannot possibly have been unaware of the risks.