Another dog kills. When is something going to be done?

[ofwarren]

AIBU to think that there needs to be a dog licence or at least SOMETHING put in place to try and prevent deaths by these dogs?
I was not at all surprised to read the breed..
"The dog, a large black XL bully cross cane corso breed, was seized by officers and has been destroyed."

metro.co.uk/2022/12/20/woman-dies-after-being-mauled-in-dog-attack-in-her-own-home-17970433/?ito=socialmetrouktwitter

Yes, what the fuck…. Gun laws work so well don’t they. 🙄

I’m a very experienced dog owner, but I wouldn’t be confident in handling or owning an XL Bully or similar. They are hugely powerful dogs and, in the wrong hands have the capacity to be lethal. But I do believe it’s the owners, rather than the dogs. The wrong owner, who doesn’t exercise, train, feed and stimulate their dog correctly, will always have a problem, irrespective of breed. Banning them won’t work I don’t think, as it will increase the “status” of these dogs to certain types of people. Maybe implement controls, similar to those for having a shotgun? So you need a licence to own or breed certain types of dog?
As for muzzling all dogs or preventing them going out in public? Big fat nope. My lot are well trained, obedient and very well socialised. They wouldn’t approach another person or another dog, because I’ve trained them that way. Having said that, I don’t walk them in places where there are lots of kids - my dogs do not enjoy their walk as much when it is punctuated by screaming children and their lackadaisical parents. They much prefer peace and quiet, as do I.

We need dog training and behaviour professionals regulated.

It is no surprise to dog professionals that the rise in dog attacks ties in with the rise in short, highly attractive social media video trainers who use aversive methods, talk bollocks about pack leader, hierarchy, and use shock and prong collars, AND the huge rise in bully breeds being the in trend among young owners and owners in poorer areas/with lower education/money/who feel more vulnerable within society.

Some organisations are working hard to get this to happen, right now anyone can call themselves a trainer or behaviourist, and then advise someone to do highly dangerous things with their dog that actually maximise the chances of the dog hurting or killing someone - and they can do this on Tiktok and insta, where they've no idea who is watching or how they're interpreting what is said.

We still have very little control on who breeds dogs, what conditions are required for breeding, breeding licences are about commercial breeding not about increasing standards for small time breeders (who are the people who SHOULD be breeding dogs, those who take their time, know the breed, produce a litter every year or less) and it is regulated and actioned by local authorities who are notoriously corrupt and, have no relevant dog husbandry knowledge whatsoever.

We don't educated people, as a country, on how to source dogs ethically, the general public couldn't tell a puppy farm from an imported cropped, docked protection bred weaponised dog, from an illegally smuggled parvo and rabies ridden puppy half the age it's meant to be, from a well bred puppy.

We still permit anyone who fancies it to set up a rescue, so they may be fabulous and know dogs well, have up to date knowledge on dog behaviour and training or they may be back in teh dark ages rattling tins of stones and yarking on about pack leaders, and sending into homes dogs with no assessment (or a worthless assessment) who have bite histories, to unchecked homes who turn up with some cash. Does the general public know the difference... no.

Licencing ownership won't solve the problem, in fact its likely to make it worse as dodgy owners and breeders who will want to keep breeding and owning these animals will just go underground - so those dogs will NEVER access proper training, no chance - they will never come out during daylight, they will never go out in their own gardens in the day, they will be kept indoors, in basements, shitting on puppy pads in kitchens, untrained, unsocialised, needs not met... taught to be weapons... til they escape, or kill someones kid in the house.

What?

Ahh not mine! Pubic!

Caerphilly is not a trashy area, whatever that means. As I understand it her grandson lived with her and operated a dog walking service. The dog was one of his charges.

I've found my people!

I haven't rubbished anyone.

However, I could maybe guess that coments on pack theory might be seen as that if (though it was nnot stated directly, I don't think).

Cesar Milan is basically Jennifer Lopez's chaffeur with his own show. I will rubbish him all day long, given the chance .

Victoria Stilwell's journey went a but like

• liked dogs
• got her own show about them
• got slammed for her techniques
• listened to the complaints
• studied the science of dog behaviour
• changed her approach and techniques to be more science based

So any pack stuff from her must come from the early days because these days she does not teach pack theory. See: positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/pack-theory-debunked/

As for the solution, no one knows. Otherwise I suspect we'd have solved it. Because it's primarily a people problem so all the degrees on dog behaviour are not going to help me much here. However, I have already commented earlier to say:

• the biggest predictor of aggression is abuse and neglect (not breed)
• people who own dogs need better knowledge of dog behavioir because when they say the attack came with no warnings, this is never true
• indiscriminate breeding is resulting in large, mentally unstable animals

I could bang on forever about insta-pets, unrealistic attitudes to pet ownership and more. But suspect I've typed enough and bored people enough already

The bully breed is a super powerful dog but the majority have an amazing temperament
some are kept by owners that want people to be scared of them and that is the biggest issues but I actually hate the knee jerk reaction that the whole breed should be destroyed
we had 2 rescue Staffies over the last 15 years and now have a year old rescue xl who has a significantly better temperament than any of my staffies - he is well trained, 100% under control in public, is never walked off lead in the park etc as I am aware that people are very apprehensive of the breed but exercised both mentally and physically every single day so please don’t assume that everyone with this breed of dog is neglectful and just has the dog as a status symbol

A couple in my street have recently acquired what seems to be a huge bully puppy. I'm very nervous about it. The woman has it on a lead and has no control whatsoever. It's dragging her everywhere and she is completely overpowered by it. Whenever it pulls her, she slaps and shouts at it.

This couple are drug addicts (or were - I don't see dealers so much these days) who had all their children removed, and have since had a couple more babies who were removed at birth. They are never, ever going to be suitable owners for a dog like that and I am quite worried about the dog getting loose or even managing to attack while on lead since they can't physically control it even as a puppy. They don't work so I have no idea how they can financially provide everything a dog of that size would need. It only seems to go for a short walk up and down the street. I'm hoping they'll lose interest or it will become too much hard work and they'll get rid of it. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm sure this guy felt exactly the same about his rescue dogs.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-59781502

Please be responsible and muzzle these potentially highly dangerous dogs in public.

Maybe you'll get lucky and the dog will OD on their stash.

I won’t muzzle him, thanks 🙄
as he doesn’t need to be muzzled in public given he is on a lead and has spot on recall that took time and patience to achieve

Your dog sounds lovely, but tell me, if he for some bolt of lightening chance did flip, how would you stop him? A dog that powerful isn't stoppable should they attack someone, in the stories I've read it's taken several people as well as the police. Children have zero chance of survival after an attack. Adults barely any.

Farmers living in areas with wolves and bears need them. In a residential, busy metropolitan area full of thousands of people at any one time a breed like this isn't necessary, is unsuitable, and potentially dangerous.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

The above message is to @TantrumsAndBalloons

This. However I think there needs to be far tighter regulations around powerful breeds that could easily kill an adult, let alone a child. XL bullys for examples. Like another poster said, they are idiot magnets and yes, they are often naturally reactive have an instinctive aggression and high protection drive. This coupled by an ignorant, idiot owner is a lethal combination.

I don’t put him in situations where he would “flip”

just to clarify the above past- bullies are absolutely not instinctively aggressive. They are incredibly people friendly and as long as they are socialised correctly, it’s rare they are dog aggressive
because they are big and some of them are owned by idiots who WANT them to be aggressive they have a reputation for being attack dogs when this is very far from the truth, my Staffies were way more reactive then my bully

I frankly don't care whether other people don't like dogs or not. It doesn't even appear on my radar. But I do find it odd that you are criticising dogs for being "obedient" or "compliant" (we call it well trained) when the thread is supposed to be about dogs behaving badly (we can't win, can we - we aren't allowed to have dogs that are out of control but they shouldn't be obedient or compliant??????). As for not answering back - you clearly haven't ever owned a dog, because they can and do! My dog is quite capable of expressing his opinion on a range of issues. But since he is well-trained (and an assistance dog) he knows not to argue too much, and sometimes he even wins the argument.

Victoria Stillwell is pretty alright; she's probably the best dog trainer who has had a regular series on UK TV. She doesn't advocate anything involving pack leadership or alpha dog theories though - in fact she's spoken out against it
positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/the-truth-about-dominance/

Caesar Milan is, however, dangerous and proof that you don't have to be any good at what you do to get a series. A lot of what he proposes are "quick fixes" that involve scaring the dog into submission, and have a nasty habit of unraveling once the cameras have stopped rolling.

Almost all dogs who bite with intent (i.e. not puppy mouthing or a sleep startle) are either
A) terrified, and want to make something go away, typically by barking, but will bite as a last resort, or sometimes out of sheer terror.
B) at the end of their tether, having used a variety of more polite ways to tell someone or something to leave it alone and being ignored. Over time if the more polite signals are consistently ignored you can create a dog that goes straight for a bite because they know that more polite signals are pointless.

The solution with dogs that are terrified is to work with a qualified behaviourist. I won't go into detail here, but behaviourists work to change the underlying emotions the dog has when it sees a trigger. This does require a committed owner who is willing to put the work in. Unfortunately at present literally any idiot can call themselves a behaviourist. I'd like to see better regulation of this, and some universities doing masters level qualifications to qualify people as clinical animal behaviourists, to increase the numbers of qualified ones as there aren't enough (currently the gold standard behaviourists are qualified by APBC and CCAB, which are essentially trade associations). I'd also like better awareness for the public of how and when to access a behaviourist.

The solution for the dogs at the end of their tether is education and prevention for owners. For instance, about the importance of allowing the dog safe spaces to get away from children and not letting them harass the dog. This is a really interesting video about the more polite signals I mentioned, but I find awareness of this really quite low even amongst a lot of dog owners.

Caesar Milan is, however, dangerous and proof that you don't have to be any good at what you do to get a series. A lot of what he proposes are "quick fixes" that involve scaring the dog into submission, and have a nasty habit of unraveling once the cameras have stopped rolling.

I'm not a dog expert but o don't get this. Caesar doesn't scare the dogs, his point is to show them he's the leader. Not near them with a stick. So if they want X hell give it when he's ready, not when the dog jumps up.

And also, if the dogs go back to normal behaviour after the cameras, it could be argued that he does a better job than the owners. I'm sure it works for some and not others, there's many reasons why it could be that it's not working

A nice summary of the problems with Cesar Millan's methods and why - after 20 years - they are now considered greatly outdated and need reassessing. Link below.

medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-with-his-approach-and-the-future-of-dog-training-49dd8cddb391#:~:text=Instead%20of%20focusing%20on%20reinforcing,guide%20dogs%20into%20behaving%20differently.

There is a lot of disagreement about a lot of dog behaviour in the canine world but what there is universal agreement on among anyone with a science-based background or education, is that Cesar Millan has done more harm than he has done good.

His methods are aversive. They use punishment at their core, even though the punishment is fairly mild in a number of instances and so, to our eyes, may seem to be gentle. e.g. he uses leash jerks, they are unpleasant for the dog. He uses finger pokes, they are also unpleasant. He introduced the 'alpha roll' which is stressful and deeply scary for the dog.

To the dog they are punishment and that causes all kinds of risks and issues. Not least, dogs trained with punishments (even "gentle" punishments) are more likely to display aggressive behaviours than dogs trained without them. Taking a already aggressive dog and using punishment to train it, is a masive gamble. And one - in my opinion - it is never ethical to take.

‘While these attacks are very rare, I'd be happy to have dog licences introduced to prevent these things from happening. And I am saying that as a dog owner. .’

these exist where I’m from. They’re meaningless. People who are going to mistreat animals just don’t get them, unsurprising, and carry on regardless. People with illegal dogs certainly aren’t going to get them. People who breed for dog fights aren’t going to get them.
and there’s no really checks in them anyway. It’s not like the police or council stop dog walkers to check

I went to one near Dartmouth in Devon a few weeks ago and the garden centre had its own resident dogs which were allowed to roam around the centre, including the restaurant and sat right next to you begging for food. I don't like it at all, but no doubt if you said anything they'd just tell you to leave.

I wish there were more dog-free places. Parks should have different areas, some dog-free, some for dogs on leads and some for dogs to exercise off-lead.

Have a scroll through Scumtree or similar. You will see pages and pages of XL bullies for sale - from £500-£5000k! You’ll also find listings for 6 month old- 12 month old xlbullies whose owner has had ‘a change of circumstance’ or the like. There are many. There are instantly available pups or dogs that need rehoming urgently.

This is where we need more control. People buying puppies like this aren’t interested in training or behavioural issues. With any dog the right environment is key. For this strong breeds it’s essential. Surely more checks need to be done by those breeding privately?