Sydney or Edinburgh, to live?

[Cathy31]

This will be long. The question is AIBU to want to move to Edinburgh, not Sydney?

YANBU - move to Edinburgh
YABU - move to Sydney

I'm married with 2 DC, 3rd on the way. I'm from the Scottish Highlands, DH from Sydney but with British citizenship. He's lived in the UK his whole adult life. We live in a smallish town in midlands England. It's nice enough, we know some lovely people, DC are settled in a fab school/ nursery, and we have no mortgage. But we have no family nearby, and no old friends here.

We're here because of my job, but it's a temporary contract in a very niche sector, which requires regular moves (sometimes to different countries). Since having children, we've decided that it's best for us as a family if I change career. We're both happy for me to be a SAHM for a few years while our children are young.

So - we had to decide whether to stay where we are, because life is fine here, or to move, because life could be better elsewhere.

We've decided to move. But where should we move to? DH is arguing for Sydney.
Reasons:

• His mother is there. She has no other family, and has said she'd be glad to help out with childcare.
• Health service/ public services generally are well funded, reliable.
• DH has some wonderful friends, that he's known for 20+ years. I get on really well with these people too.
• THE WEATHER

Problems:

• Expensive, so we'd both have to work to afford a flat in a decent area. Even now, PT with two DC here, life feels busy, and sometimes overwhelming, so it feels big to have the financial burden.
• So far from everyone I know and love.
• I'd need a visa for work, which would mean we'd have to move out and live there for a while before I could start looking for work.

I'm arguing for Edinburgh. Reasons:

• My relationship with my parents isn't great, but DC love them, and my wider family is wonderful, including some lovely cousins for DC.
• I'd love DC to grow up speaking Gaelic, playing traditional Scottish music etc etc. It's hard to put the value of this into words, but it's very important, and DH recognises that it's something Sydney can't offer.
• We're able to afford a flat, the same size as our current house, in the centre of Edinburgh, on a mortgage small enough that I wouldn't need to work.
• Some of our oldest mutual friends live there. Most of our other mutual friends live in Britain, so we'd continue to see them a fair bit.

Problems:

• It's freezing. We couldn't afford a bigger place than we currently have unless we lived far from the centre, which isn't a problem in a hot climate, but in Edinburgh, it seems important to have living space...
• So far from the people DH feels closest to.

We feel quite sure that we could have a better life in either Edinburgh or Sydney than we do where we currently live. But which one would be best? Which one will our children be glad they grew up in?

A lot of this thread is about what OP wants, but what about her DH? I ask not because I think it's more important than what OP wants but because I don't have a clear idea of the pros and cons for him other than being where he's from.

is it possible to gain permanent residency via DH with time as in the UK?

the thing about Edinburgh weather is the lack of sunlight especially in winter. I moved from London to somewhere (east coast USA) that has nearly twice as much rain a year, but also several hundred more hours of bright sunlight, and the difference is really noticeable. it's not just the quantity of rain but that frequency, lots of drizzle versus periodic rain storms. And Edinburgh is less sunny than that, though not as bad as Glasgow. Yes, Sydney is hot in summer, but it's not 40 every day. The cost of living in Sydney is really high, though, and that would be a definite down side for me.

?! Sydney doesn't get dark at 6pm in summer?! I would sit on my north west facing balcony in Sydney after work at 6pm in full high sun. It doesn't get dark until we'll gone 8pm

Some of the advice on this thread is batshit.

Also the heat isn't ridiculous like some people are saying. It's currently 24c in Sydney as it is here in Auckland. I'm not dying. It's perfectly pleasant. Feb and March can get a hot desert blast but outwith that it's nothing worse than the mid or south of France in summer

The heat is dry as well and there's always a breeze in Sydney so I found it far more manageable than a humid, airless London summer. Plus they are set up for heat. Shade is created everywhere. Kids playgrounds have shade sails, restaurants have cool shaded terraces, shops, trains and buses have aircon. They are set up for it. Coming from London where a standard summer leaves you dripping with sweat after an airless 40c, 90% humidity trip it found it incredibly comfortable.

y do realise that Australia has over 60,000 years of history. Just not white history so clearly it’s not real history according to mn.

That's such a common sentiment on MN with regard to Australia or North America. History only starts when the Europeans turn up.

I've never been to Sydney but live in Edinburgh, and my son grew up here and went to the Gaelic primary in Leith, As Edinburgh is so compact but with a lot packed into a small area, it can be great for kids. Lots of parks and great hiking/walks nearby. The weather is not constantly sunny but temperate enough that you can enjoy the outdoors most of the year round. Good links to the beautiful north of England (Lake District, Yorkshire etc) as well as Highlands and other lovely places.

Overall, the Gaelic primary was great. It's by no means confined to Scottish/Highland families. It is very diverse, and open to everyone across the city. Great opportunities for Gaelic music and singing. When my son started there, it was the highest-achieving state primary school in Edinburgh (don't know if it still holds that place). It also gives access to James Gillespies High School at secondary level, which is another plus. I found this a terrific secondary.

Hope this helps - happy to answer any questions.

I live in Sydneyand love it but I think this is the most important consideration. There are too many women who move countries and end up trapped when their marriage breaks up because they can't go leave with their children.

Moving to a new country is stressful enough but if unless you are very, very confident in the strength of your marriage, you should stay in your home country.

Exactly, blackheath.

Also the heat isn't ridiculous like some people are saying.

It is an unusually cool December. I moved out of Sydney partially to escape the heat.

They won't grow up speaking Gaelic living in Edinburgh 😂😂😂😂

There is at least one Gaelic speaking primary in Edinburgh believe it or not

What is your connection to Edinburgh? I find it very different to other parts of Scotland in nature

Thanks everyone, this has all been really helpful. Edinburgh seems to win as the more liveable, more affordable city. I n response to a few qu:

• DH has British citizenship, has lived in UK for 16 years, including 5 in Edinburgh.
• I know DC won't learn Gaelic just by living in Edinburgh, but I'd have the opportunity to send them to the Gaelic medium school. There's also a fab trad music scene in Edinburgh
• I'm not that concerned about being 'trapped ' in Oz if the marriage ends. It's v strong but even if that changes, I trust that DH and I would decide together what was best for DC, and if that meant staying in Oz I'd accept that.
• Weather - so much debate on this! 😂I think we're fairly sure, having lived in both cities, that afternoons in the park with DC will generally (not always) be more pleasant in Sydney than Edinburgh.
• Someone said the two big factors are health care/ public services being really, really bad here, vs climate change being v scary in Oz. These are two big concerns for me. Not sure how to think these through tbh!

@midgetastic DH and I met there, and lived there for 5 years. We have some old friends there. And it's Scotland, but not too close to my... Difficult ...family, or too remote from other cities/ transport links.

The Gaelic school is massively oversubscribed so that may not be an option, I missed if you said how old your children are but if nearing school age I’d make the move sooner rather than later.

Would you really want to live in Leith though? On the one side its up and coming, the other side is fraught with drug problems. Although to be fair many cities will have parts like that. Also if you can afford a flat in Edinburgh with a small mortgage then you can afford a house with a fantastic garden if you were to live outside of the city. For instance East or West Lothian would still be commutable to Edinburgh.

It's a tough one, your dh's mum only has him so I can see why he would be drawn to home, plus better weather but it is expensive to live in Australia.The basics cost more and it would mean you both need to work. It's colder in Scotland in general but not freezing unless it's snowing which it is at the moment. Not come across many kids that speak gaelic though and in general your arguments for wanting to love in Scotland are quite weak, there is obviously more to Scottish culture than wanting to play the bagpipes. They can keep a hold of the Scottish connection wherever you live but you as the Scottish parent would need to facilitate it.

Are the kids old enough to have a say?

There are so many better places to live. The climate in Sydney is a growing issue but the grey days in Edinburgh are soul destroying.
And Scotland has been captured by woman haters. No way would I want to raise a daughter there.

My friend has recently been deciding between (south) England and sydney

she was originally saying how the weather in sud was a big factor because she wants her children to be raised outside

but has this year been saying hot actually it’s too hot to go outside for months of the year in Australia so she feels like she’d get out more in England

This year she’s been saying it’s hot? And she’s in Sydney?
Been a cool summer here, thus far (and this morning was unseasonably brisk! 😂)
oh and it’s 7.39pm and still daylight and the kids down the road will be playing in the street for a good while yet. 😉
Yes, it gets hot. Care should be taken. But there are mornings and evenings, it’s not necessary to hibernate 24/7, certainly not for 6 months of the year (but OP has actually lived here and knows that).

Hi :)

What a wonderful choice and sentiment to want to take an opportunity and give your kids and family a better quality of life. It sounds like you and your partner have agreed change needs to happen, but not how the change needs to happen.

I haven't read all the posts so not sure if I might be repeating others here. But I'm curious about one thing.

You posted 3 questions.

1. AIBU to want to move to Edinburgh, not Sydney?
2. Which one would be best?
3. Which one will our children be glad they grew up in?

The only one Mumsnet can confidently answer is #1. Not that the others aren't important, but we can't answer them because we don't know you or your specific family circumstances or needs. So as much as you might get useful back and forth here, which will give you more to think about and possibly clarify your thinking, I suspect what you are hoping for is permission to want what you want. The other questions on weather, politics and language are, from the perspective of our input anyway, red herrings. You'll get people tell you the weather is better in Sydney, and others who'll tell you it's just fine in Scotland.

So my answer to number 1 is, of course YANBU! You want what you want. But then of course, from the reasons given here, your husband is also very likely NBU either. This is where this forum falls down. It's too binary. It might seem like a binary question - Sydney or Edinburgh? But it's not when you consider that neither of you is probably wrong. Some things will be better and some will be worse in both places. There will be no perfect decision.

From my perspective the most important thing for partners in this situation is to go really deep into WHY you each want what you want, with the goal of learning about the other's perspective rather than winning. Why is Gaelic important to you? Why are you both suggesting moving back to your parents at this moment right now? Do either of you feel a greater sense of responsibility or pull towards your parents as they get older, or not really? What does the thought of your parents growing older without you or your children bring up for each of you, and why?

Furthermore, maybe go deeper with each other on how different priorities relate to each other in the overall scheme of things? Is being closer to old friends more of a deal breaker than weather? What would have to be the case to make you want to work full time? What can be managed/compromised on, and what is non-negotiable for each of you?

Because this is a massive life decision with important consequences, I'd recommend a short term course of couples therapy. They obviously won't make the decision for you, but it'll really facilitate this conversation deeply, compassionately, neutrally, and maybe probe into that 'whys' a bit deeper. It's really not that unaffordable when you balance it against a move to Australia haha! And worth taking the time to really work things through.

I would also really recommend these articles as they touch on issues you've raised:

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/apr/23/i-love-the-city-my-wife-the-country-how-do-we-both-get-what-we-want

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/mar/11/i-feel-torn-between-two-cities-how-do-i-reconcile-where-i-want-to-be

I really hope either move goes wonderfully for you. Take your time, there's no rush :)

I don't think this has been mentioned, but although I completely agree that the cost of living in Australia is pretty high (although I think the gap is closing, haven't recently come back from the UK!)- bear in mind that your wages will likely be significantly higher as well. For the same job which I did in the UK on £23k, I am earning $115k AUD which is about £66k- my husband has found similar.
So, although costs can be higher, you will certainly still have a better standard of living!

I'm slightly amused by Edinburgh coming out as the more affordable city, Sydney must be bad!! Honestly though, i think it's worth the money compared to living out in the Lothians. What would your budget be?

Skipped to the end, so thus may have been covered
As an expat (SAHM) living in Australia, you throw all your rights to the wind.
If you are unhappy & want to leave, you cant unless your H agrees.
There gave been numerous threads on here about desperate trapped women.
Please dont put yourself in that position

A few people have asked how old DC are. They're 4.5 and 3, so eldest would start school in Aug 2023 in Edinburgh/ Jan 2023 in Sydney. They're young enough that I have no concerns about e.g. New friendships.

@Doidontimmm do you know how the bun sgoil selects for P1 when it's oversubscribed? We could move in with family in gracemount very quickly if an address there would be ok, but it's very far from the school....