Sydney or Edinburgh, to live?

[Cathy31]

This will be long. The question is AIBU to want to move to Edinburgh, not Sydney?

YANBU - move to Edinburgh
YABU - move to Sydney

I'm married with 2 DC, 3rd on the way. I'm from the Scottish Highlands, DH from Sydney but with British citizenship. He's lived in the UK his whole adult life. We live in a smallish town in midlands England. It's nice enough, we know some lovely people, DC are settled in a fab school/ nursery, and we have no mortgage. But we have no family nearby, and no old friends here.

We're here because of my job, but it's a temporary contract in a very niche sector, which requires regular moves (sometimes to different countries). Since having children, we've decided that it's best for us as a family if I change career. We're both happy for me to be a SAHM for a few years while our children are young.

So - we had to decide whether to stay where we are, because life is fine here, or to move, because life could be better elsewhere.

We've decided to move. But where should we move to? DH is arguing for Sydney.
Reasons:

• His mother is there. She has no other family, and has said she'd be glad to help out with childcare.
• Health service/ public services generally are well funded, reliable.
• DH has some wonderful friends, that he's known for 20+ years. I get on really well with these people too.
• THE WEATHER

Problems:

• Expensive, so we'd both have to work to afford a flat in a decent area. Even now, PT with two DC here, life feels busy, and sometimes overwhelming, so it feels big to have the financial burden.
• So far from everyone I know and love.
• I'd need a visa for work, which would mean we'd have to move out and live there for a while before I could start looking for work.

I'm arguing for Edinburgh. Reasons:

• My relationship with my parents isn't great, but DC love them, and my wider family is wonderful, including some lovely cousins for DC.
• I'd love DC to grow up speaking Gaelic, playing traditional Scottish music etc etc. It's hard to put the value of this into words, but it's very important, and DH recognises that it's something Sydney can't offer.
• We're able to afford a flat, the same size as our current house, in the centre of Edinburgh, on a mortgage small enough that I wouldn't need to work.
• Some of our oldest mutual friends live there. Most of our other mutual friends live in Britain, so we'd continue to see them a fair bit.

Problems:

• It's freezing. We couldn't afford a bigger place than we currently have unless we lived far from the centre, which isn't a problem in a hot climate, but in Edinburgh, it seems important to have living space...
• So far from the people DH feels closest to.

We feel quite sure that we could have a better life in either Edinburgh or Sydney than we do where we currently live. But which one would be best? Which one will our children be glad they grew up in?

From what you describe, I'd choose Edinburgh. Your cultural/language reasons the tipping point in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean by "funky rules". Both the UK and Australia are signatories of the Hague Convention, meaning you can't take away your children to another country without the approval of the other parent or a court decision.

Yes but I was under the impression that the definition of habitual resident was up for grabs and applied in a more strident manner favouring the Australian resident. It's worth thinking about in any case

@Snoken

Lastly, I wouldn't want to get my kids settled in a place that most likely will be more or less unhabitable in their lifetime. I'd rather they settled near family since MIL in Aus won't be around by then anyway.

I'm Australian, and gosh, you've shocked me with the terrible news that my country is apparently on the way out? Do you have a (reputable) source for that?

Be aware that if you move to Sydney and it doesn't work and you and your DH split then he can stop you bringing the children back.

The other thing I would add is that my understanding is that the Scottish education system isn't very good? That coupled with NS's current destruction of women would put me off moving to Scotland.

There are lots of reports suggesting this. Note though that I said more or less unhabitable. There will still be people living in Australia in 50-70 years, but the areas where people can live will become smaller and fewer unless something changes drastically.

Here are some articles:

www.penguin.com.au/articles/3179-dire-prediction-of-uninhabitable-parts-of-australia

theconversation.com/seriously-ugly-heres-how-australia-will-look-if-the-world-heats-by-3-c-this-century-157875

nz.news.yahoo.com/tim-flannery-weather-forecast-for-the-year-2100-extreme-climate-change-050057264.html

Frankly, your impression is beyond wrong. There is nothing like "up for grabs" and "strident manner" favouring Australian residents regarding the rights of the children. The OP can move to Sydney and move back to the UK in a couple of years without a problem, even if her DH disagrees and makes a move to stop her. It will take very little money and effort for a lawyer to get approval for her and children to go back.

I have no idea why you're giving a negative impression about Australian laws. It's the same for all countries signatories of the Hague Convection, including UK children taken to third countries because one parent literally kidnap their children bypassing all UK laws.

Same! But either way, if scaremongering stops people moving here then I’m all for it!

OP, it’s awful here. There’s wildlife that will kill you wherever you turn. That’s if the sun doesn’t kill you first. Everything is so expensive and if you do manage on the rare occasion to find food, you’ll have to fight off all the criminals who are ready to fight you for it. Don’t get hurt because ambulance and healthcare will be far too expensive for you. And don’t get me started on schools. You need to start saving for school
before you even think about conception. There is zero culture, nada. You literally spend every waking hour fighting off sharks and crocodiles or avoiding snakes and spiders. Also if you move here, your kids will be trapped here forever. And if you do survive, the land will magically become uninhabitable anyway.

Having lived over in the west of Scotland and now in Edinburgh, it really doesn't rain much here! It can be windy, but lately we've had some beautiful bright, cold days.

I have no experience of Sydney but would say don't underestimate the strain a long distance, permanent move can put on your marriage.
If you do go I wouldn't burn bridges to return.
Homesickness is a normal part of any move but when your husband has connections and you don't it will amplify things. As does having settled children. The feeling of lack of choice and being stuck somewhere can e suffocating. And it is worth considering what happens if you split up. Hopefully not be the case but it is foolish to say it could never happen.

I appreciate your husband has family and a draw to Sydney but if he's been in the UK his entire adult life he presumably had roots here before you met and has probably two decade's worth of friendships etc. You'd be starting totally from scratch.

That's not to say you couldn't do it and thrive, just to be aware of the imbalance it can create in a relationship.

While it is quite true that Edinburgh is not the most Scottish of cities, and Gaelic is not commonly spoken, there is a really good Gaelic medium school and if the OP has anyone Gaelic herself, they will be fine. There is more provision in Glasgow, if that's an option, and a larger house might also be affordable?

If it's Edinburgh and the Gaelic school you want, if you live more than 2 miles away you will qualify for a school bus or taxi.

As I Sydneysider from birth, I think that both cities need to deal with their weather. Australians are shocked that everyone on the UK needs radiators for heat. You guys are shocked we need airconditioning for cool. It's pretty much the same. 3 months of the year are pretty hot in Sydney but every shop/ office and many houses are air-conditioned. A pool is not an unusual thing. Same as in Edinburgh I assume in winter you all have the heat on. Not a huge amount of difference.
I think the pp talking about uninhabitable may be thinking of the Maldives which is almost halfway between Australia and the UK .
I do get a bit cross with the Eurocentric claptrap on this site. The poster that mentioned "The Far East" a few weeks ago blew me away. Far east of what exactly?
Otherwise this is a fab site and as I know very little about the UK I would take the advice of people who know both cities well OP.
You can't go wrong with either I would think.

Lived in both cities. Both are wonderful places. Great food, culture and sport possibilities.

Purely based on the family connections and you have kids, I'd go to Edinburgh. Without the kids I think it would be more of a discussion, but as someone who ended up living away from family, there's nothing that makes up for your kids having good relations with their families. You't buy that and you can't replicate it.

BUT I'd be getting read up on women's rights in Scotland. And what you can and can't talk about. There was a thread just yesterday about a social worker who has gotten reported for saying the wrong thing (even though it's currently supported by law). Australia has some similar issues, so it's not a much better alternative in that respect.

This is an impossible situation because whichever you choose, someone’s going to end up unhappy I think.

Fuck me, I adore Sydney, but Edinburgh. Go for Edinburgh.
I’ve lived in both; Sydney for 6 years, and Edinburgh for 17. I take holidays in Sydney now. It’s so expensive to live there, and friends with kids there say that the schools are really variable. Healthcare is expensive for many things; some friends there haven’t seen a dentist for years.
Edinburgh has its issues, but I choose it for liveability every time.

With the cost of living, I'd go to where you can both legally work.

As PP, my brother is returning from 20 years in Australia due to unbearably hot summers.

I'm on team Edinburgh, but I am drawn to Scotland and cooler climates anyway.

The replies have been amazing, Thank you all so much! To answer a few questions/issues that have come up:

• Yes, I've been to Sydney (and other parts of Oz), including living in Sydney for nearly a year, before DC. I was very homesick, and struggled to find work (no visa). But I know that the comments about 'no culture/history'/ 'not multicultural ' are absurd and offensive, so have ignored them - sorry that Aussies are subjected to that nonsense every time their country comes up on mumsnet.
• I don't speak Gaelic, unfortunately. Many of my family do, but it wasn't important to my parents. Duolingo/ online tutors can't capture what I want, which is more a sense of a living Gaelic culture that DC see as theirs.
• DH and I met during his first year in the UK, so all his closest friends here are also friends of mine. We actually met in Edinburgh, soon after we'd both moved there, so have known these friends for the same amount of time. It's not my hometown, it has something for both of us, though more for me.
• DH has been very happy in UK, but his wonderful dad died in Oz during the pandemic, and he's really struggled to come to terms with the loss, and with not seeing his dad for years before his death, or getting to the funeral. It's this that's really spurred the talk of moving out there. I understand this, it really has been awful for him. I thought a holiday to Sydney which we took as soon as borders opened would help but it didn't.
• I know not to count on mil or anyone else for childcare, probably should have put the emphasis on the relationship DC could have with her.
• There is no third option for where to move. We've talked about this for a over a year now (!) And the options are Edinburgh (probably somewhere between Haymarket area and Leith) and Sydney (ideally petersham/ Dulwich hill/ maybe arncliffe area). We want somewhere at least one of us has a connection to, and although we would move again if life didn't work out we have moved a lot and ideally would now start putting down roots and building a life for us and DC.

I would choose Edinburgh. The biggest factors would be climate change in the future may make Australia a poor choice for living in and Australia is so far away from Europe.

Also, DH knows he can be happy in the UK as he's lived here a long time, but you don't really know if you'll like Australia. If you move there, hate it, technically your DH can refuse you permission to take the DC back to the UK.

'no culture/history' absurd

I don't think anyone's said there's no culture or history in Sydney, but cultural activities are limited if you're used to living in a decent city in the UK with relatively easy access to London and other major cities here and in Europe. Just walking around Edinburgh you can see 800 years of history reflected in the architecture alone. I've been to Edinburgh about 20 times over the years and never run out of new places to see and things to do.

In Edinburgh you have several major theatres that have productions around the year, plus a cultural explosion for the festival every year. Glasgow, with all it has to offer, is 40 minutes away on the train. I have family in Oz and NZ who love living where they do but still talk longingly of their desire to return to the UK and Europe for their history and culture fixes.

OP

Sydney (ideally petersham/ Dulwich hill/ maybe arncliffe area)

These suburbs are high density and expensive because they are so close to the CBD - barely 10-15 mins away by bus, train or light rail. As someone who has just moved to Australia, it's not easy to rent in these suburbs unless you have a backer and a healthy bank account. Even if you do, be prepared to lose a few times the places you want to rent. Will you be able to stay with your MIL until you get a rental? It'd be essential to stay with family until you do.

It's a difficult decision to make and whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

@Alondra yes, we'd stay with mil. She has a big house in the North shore, not somewhere I'd want to live long term but she'd be happy to put us up for a while. I know petersham etc are expensive, and might realistically be out of reach if sold prices are much higher than advertised prices, but looking at realestate.com.au, we could afford somewhere small.... I think we'd compromise quite a bit on space to live quite centrally.

Thank you. I can't believe how helpful and lovely the responses have been. DH and I feel we've made more progress on this in the past 12 hours than we'd made for months!

Advertised prices on realestate.com.au are what you will be expected to pay. It's a phenomenal website, I bought my house through it :)

You seem to have done your research and know what you are doing. Again, good wishes and all the best.

I have lived in both for about a year, and I would choose Edinburgh!
My DH would choose Sydney. In fact he never really forgave me for returning to the Uk but thats another story.
I really enjoyed my time in Oz, but I found it restrictive - got 20 days holiday - and then the choice was, well, somewhere else in Oz or long haul. I love having Europe at our doorstep. It was starting to get expensive even then and that was back in 2005. The weather is extreme in Summer and I found commuting quite hard going in that. I didnt have children then but i think i personally would have felt quite trapped. And you would literally be stuck there without your DH permission to take them.

I think people are over-estimating how much it rains in Edinburgh (and how cold it is!). The east is so much drier than the west and reading the thread about how cold it is, it's currently a good few degrees warmer than the south of england today!

It sounds like the only person there is in Sydney is your DHs mum. That will be very lonely. I'd say Edinburgh.