Sydney or Edinburgh, to live?

[Cathy31]

This will be long. The question is AIBU to want to move to Edinburgh, not Sydney?

YANBU - move to Edinburgh
YABU - move to Sydney

I'm married with 2 DC, 3rd on the way. I'm from the Scottish Highlands, DH from Sydney but with British citizenship. He's lived in the UK his whole adult life. We live in a smallish town in midlands England. It's nice enough, we know some lovely people, DC are settled in a fab school/ nursery, and we have no mortgage. But we have no family nearby, and no old friends here.

We're here because of my job, but it's a temporary contract in a very niche sector, which requires regular moves (sometimes to different countries). Since having children, we've decided that it's best for us as a family if I change career. We're both happy for me to be a SAHM for a few years while our children are young.

So - we had to decide whether to stay where we are, because life is fine here, or to move, because life could be better elsewhere.

We've decided to move. But where should we move to? DH is arguing for Sydney.
Reasons:

• His mother is there. She has no other family, and has said she'd be glad to help out with childcare.
• Health service/ public services generally are well funded, reliable.
• DH has some wonderful friends, that he's known for 20+ years. I get on really well with these people too.
• THE WEATHER

Problems:

• Expensive, so we'd both have to work to afford a flat in a decent area. Even now, PT with two DC here, life feels busy, and sometimes overwhelming, so it feels big to have the financial burden.
• So far from everyone I know and love.
• I'd need a visa for work, which would mean we'd have to move out and live there for a while before I could start looking for work.

I'm arguing for Edinburgh. Reasons:

• My relationship with my parents isn't great, but DC love them, and my wider family is wonderful, including some lovely cousins for DC.
• I'd love DC to grow up speaking Gaelic, playing traditional Scottish music etc etc. It's hard to put the value of this into words, but it's very important, and DH recognises that it's something Sydney can't offer.
• We're able to afford a flat, the same size as our current house, in the centre of Edinburgh, on a mortgage small enough that I wouldn't need to work.
• Some of our oldest mutual friends live there. Most of our other mutual friends live in Britain, so we'd continue to see them a fair bit.

Problems:

• It's freezing. We couldn't afford a bigger place than we currently have unless we lived far from the centre, which isn't a problem in a hot climate, but in Edinburgh, it seems important to have living space...
• So far from the people DH feels closest to.

We feel quite sure that we could have a better life in either Edinburgh or Sydney than we do where we currently live. But which one would be best? Which one will our children be glad they grew up in?

Well, I didn't like Sydney and I love Edinburgh.

Don't you have friends where you are though? You're in a very good position at the moment. Instead of taking on a mortgage and giving up your job completely why not go part time and use the money you'll save to travel more to see family in edinburgh and Sydney

From your original post with pros and cons, Sydney all the way.

I'm a Spanish (Madrid) expat living in Sydney. We've been here almost 10 years and I love this country to pieces. We came here on a work sponsored visa because my DH was given the opportunity to work 4 years on a project in Sydney. Those 4 years were extended another 4 and when the project finished, we made the decision to stay. He got a job with an engineering Australian company and were sponsored for a permanent resident visa which came through 4 months after.

My oldest returned to Spain 5 years ago, but my middle son decided to stay after finishing university, and the youngest looks like will do the same when he finishes.

I always shake my head at the amount of crap I read here about living in Australia. Sydney is one of the most diverse, and fabulous cities in the world, and it's a great place to bring up a family. The public health system is far superior to the NHS, many public schools do great if you don't want to pay for private, and while housing is expensive, wages are also very high. One of the eternal whinges on MN is how expensive Australia is, yes, it is expensive but a medium wage is $1,200 per week, and the majority are way higher than that.

Kids have multitude of activities outside school, specially sports. Literally every school has a swimming program and other sporting activities. It's the same for every council or suburb, you can enrol the kids for very little money to a multitude of activities.

The food is fabulous, the fresh produce literally blows your mind away, and the diversity of food is mind-blowing. As an example, my DH works in a team of 32 people with 18 different nationalities and 22 original languages.

As to those who think Sydney is about beaches and bars, they never really lived in Sydney. You can visit galleries, expositions, museums and theatres until you get bored.

Your DH is his mother's only child and with the offer of childcare, you'd be crazy to pass it up - you can find work in no time, and there are always after school programs which are great. Considering you also have great friends here, I wouldn't hesitate.

Sydney
I love the beaches, heat and the positivity.
Edinburgh has charm but 364 days a year of cold is so depressing.

I adore Edinburgh and lived there for a while. It’s a terrific city with so much going on. I live in Melbourne now and love it, I’ve also lived in Brisbane. With regards to Sydney I’m not so sure but Wollongong is a great City a 1.5 hour South (not much help in your situation). Great beaches and cheaper.

@Cocolatte24

Also, they have little to no historical attractions, the wildlife can be pretty intense, they are far from any other countries bar New Zealand, they lack cultural diversity, the property prices are insane, they are suffering from a similar increase in high utility prices to us, wokeism is strife... it goes on.

Wokeism is rife? I assume you mean that's a bad thing?
^
We do have high utility prices. However, a great deal of us offset this with solar panels - my own energy bills are very little to $0. FYI, Australia is close to Asia, as well as New Zealand, and a host of other oceanic countries.

As to lacking historical attractions - I'm guessing you mean Euro-centric, centuries-old kind? It's not really our fault, is it? We did have the First Nations people here for at least 50,000 years before the English arrived 200-old years ago, but perhaps that doesn't count to you. We do have museums, though!

But I agree with you on one point. The wildlife can be intense. My backyard alone - although it is quite rural - had a brown snake just yesterday in the chook shed.^

I know both very well!

I voted Edinburgh because it’s clear you want it more from the excited way you talk about it in your op. The heart wants what it wants! It sounds, from your OP, that you’d be happier there.

I don't live in Edinburgh, but I am fairly nearby in Kinross and visit Edinburgh often, and I lived in Sydney for nine years. I would choose here over Australia every single time! I'd not lived in either place before I moved there (from the midlands originally, lived in Cambridge area before I moved to Sydney, then moved to Kinross, all for exH's work). I found Sydney dull, very difficult to make friends (immigrant so kept at arms length), weather was too hot or freezing in the winter, far from everywhere else, insular, difficult to get home to visit (took all annual leave and buckets of money), exH worked much longer hours, and it was eyewateringly expensive, plus risk of bushfire and extreme weather seemed to be getting worse.

Sure, it's cold here now, but beautiful and clear skies, more expensive than it was when we moved to the UK (but you're already here paying UK prices), and although everyone says it rains more here, it's actually drier than Sydney. I've made a bunch of awesome friends, have been overseas to Europe on holiday (much easier), been exploring the highlands (so beautiful), kids happy and doing well in school, I'm happy at work, love the turn of the seasons (really missed that in Aus), and life is just a million times better!

I live in Blue Mountains, about 1 hour from Sydney by train. My DH works in the CBD and rarely takes his car. He gets on the train, takes his laptop out, and begins working like the rest of the commuters do. I work 3 days a week as a nurse in a major teaching hospital, 15 mins away.

You don't need to live in the Easter Suburbs of Sydney, which is the Mayfair, Kensington area of London to have a great life in Sydney and much cheaper.

The rain and flooding in sydney is getting progressively worse.

Climate change is getting progressively worse everywhere in the world.

When councils have been for decades giving licenses to developers to build in flood prone areas, problems eventually develop. If you want to be safe from floods and bushfires, you rent/buy in suburbs/areas when you won't have a problem, which is 98% of them, despite what you hear in the news.

I live in a very leafy suburb with my house backing a natural reserve. I know there is a chance we could get caught in a bushfire, but that's something we discussed, and thoroughly researched.

The UK have been shutting down public transport for snow, floods and heat in the past year a few times. Does it impact the majority? No. Same as in Sydney.

Daycare and before/after school care are expensive here in Sydney if you aren't eligible for the CCS subsidy. There is a shortage of childcare centers and it's not unusual to put your DC down at birth or before hand to ensure a place. It can be a 1-2 year wait to enroll an older child at some centers. Nannies and babysitters are also expensive.

But there are a lot of positives. We are just north of the bridge so both DH and I can walk or run to work in the city, our local primary school is fantastic, there are so many parks, playgrounds and walking tracks, the public transport is pretty good (bus, train or light rail). We go to shows, concerts, galleries, museums, and travel within Australia (we're still exploring because Oz is massive).
Definitely expensive but the salaries are pretty good too.
Workplaces have quite an emphasis on work-life balance.
Healthcare is good, maternity care was great, dental is expensive but subsidized with health insurance.

Healthcare on the Medicare system is a bit of a shitshow, not as bad as the UK and NHS but waiting times can be comparable for surgery if you live in a well populated place and don’t have health insurance. Paediatrician costs can be high and you only get a small Medicare rebate for 3 visits per year/per child. You would definitely need at least extras cover as well as Ambulance cover as dental is expensive and you do get a small amount for school age children each year, but it’s a small amount. Braces for kids are about $12000, so very expensive. Ambulance is about $1000 and that includes for children. Depending on what you can afford and where you want to live, prices can be eye watering. Don’t be fooled by wanted down under. It’s not like being on holiday all year round. Also, parts of NSW do get snow (big ski industry). Eating out, theatre etc., can be expensive. Bear in mind too that you won’t have the choice that you have in the UK. That includes for food, furniture, furnishings etc. And be prepared to not like the heat, the mosquitoes, the spiders and the snakes. I read a news article a few years back about a family that went to live in Aus and left because they couldn’t get Robinsons cordial for their kids! Iirc they left after 2 weeks!

I live in a hot country, which is hot all year round, and my husband just about manages the summer temperatures which are >35C for about 4/5 months of the year. (He also doesn’t like the winter temps if ~25C, which is mid afternoon and feels cold)I love it but cooking Christmas dinner can be a nightmare. (We don’t have aircon but we have shutters and thermal curtains so other than cooking a roast dinner 3x per year, it’s fine). I don’t own a jacket or coat and just wear cardigans/fleeces in winter.

I wouldn't want to live anywhere women's rights are being dismantled, so I'd stay put personally.

I lived in Sydney for 60 years - in some of the best parts so very beautiful surroundings and life was pretty great. (There are more things to do on a weekend besides go to a beach - which is what a previous poster wrote). But it became a harder to move about and the nicest parts of Sydney are v expensive places to live.

Schooling in the public school system ie state schools are hit and miss. Some schools are v good. Some are not. There is a small charge to attend a state school but it was never compulsory to pay. You will fork out for school excursions etc.. If you can afford private schools you are on an absolute winner. You pay high fees of course, but each private school receives, per pupil, more from the state govt than a public school does. Shameful state of affairs, extremely unfair.

Excellent libraries, v good museums (but nothing like the sheer numbers of museums I’ve seen in London) Sydney has its state art gallery which is world class. Modern public galleries too. Canberra -national art gallery is excellent and a two day trip from Canberra to Sydney (4 hour drive each way) will cost, but it gets many of the important world art shows (brain fog - can’t think of the right word so art shows has to do for now) that tour the world on loan from galleries elsewhere in the world. Great restaurants. Very multicultural. Fantastic live shows, great theatre companies etcc. Some wonderful places to eat. Sydney Harbour. Culturally also there is a great deal of First Nations’ Culture available. Start with the Bangarra Dance company. But artists, musicians etc - there are plenty and this availability is growing. The poster who said ‘no culture’ must not have been here, or given that she said bars- must have spent a lot of time in them. There are plenty of those too.

The poster who said Sydney was vv dangerous - no, no more so than most places.

BUT as a pp said:

“Sydney is overcrowded, congested, and unbelievably expensive to live in, as well as uncomfortably hot six months of the year. You will spend your entire life in traffic, and trying to find a place to park, and ditto when you visit a beach on the weekend.”

it’s not uncomfortably hot 6 months of the year but the rest is true. it is hot about 4 months of the year, with high humidity often. It’s a shit fight to get anywhere during the day by road. But you won’t spend your ‘entire life’ in traffic.

I was there (Sydney) yesterday and the traffic was horrendous. I’ve moved to a regional area, still coastal so very beautiful, but regional is a bit of a cultural vacuum. I would only move back to Sydney if I won the lottery and could live close to the things I like to do in a v beautiful area. I’d need a decent lottery win for that.

Our health care system is holding up but it’s shaken post covid. And public health - visits to doctors and specialist are not free unless they ‘bulk bill’ which is now rare. There is a rebate available. Eg if you have a referral to a specialist in the private system you will pay about on average 350$ for a consultation of which you get close to a half back, A GP visit will cost from $80 to $120 and you’ll get about half back. Although in Sydney there’s not a long waiting time to see GPs. If really sick, or if grandkids kids are sick, my regular GP always fit me in on the same day.

General GP visit, I could make a booking one day, and have an appointment within 2 days. There is a safety net. If a family spends over roughly 2,200 in a year of their own money (not total / does not include rebates) the rebate then becomes much higher - will cover most of the cost of the doctors /specialist visits. But at the end of the year it’s back to square one and you have to spend that amount again before family safety net kicks in (you do have to register each year for family safety net). Public hospitals are all free - public clinics, surgeries, ct scans in hospital etc will cost you nothing - apart from the Medicare levy which is about 2% (probably higher now) of your weekly wage.

I hesitate to say the following because not sure how the UK is dealing with climate crisis but in Australia most of us are pretty nervous - we seem to be, along with other nations in the Southern Hemisphere, on the frontline of the climate crisis. - since the 2019/2020 unprecedented bushfires, followed by dust storms (Sydney sat in a haze of smoke and dust particles for 3 months during 2019/2020 fires).. Then it’s been flooding on and off ever since, and some Suburbs of Sydney flooded too, not just regional. Big weather,: strong winds, electrical storms etc are getting much more common.

I love Australia, born here, the space feels larger, the sky feels higher than in Europe, the air feels different. I loved lots of Europe when I visited - fell in love with London (fully aware the London I saw was one of the richer areas (stayed in holland park). So I’m comparing best with best from a limited selection, and chose Australia. And although I love Sydney, I no longer can afford it, and when I visit it, and get stuck in traffic I’m glad I’m no longer experiencing it on a daily basis. Sydney is a very cosmopolitan city (as is Melbourne) but outside the cities, a lot of the country is pretty wild but beautiful.

One thing someone else mentioned. I’ve seen happen here too:
If you decide to move here, but in 20 years time want to return to your original home (understandable), your kids might not want to return with you. I’ve seen that happen quite a few times. And Scotland is a long way from Sydney.
So not just the ‘now’ to consider but also the future.

good luck with your decision OP. Hoping you make the choice right for you.

I definitely agree with the air feeling different here in Aus. Every time I return to Australia from Europe or the US, the air here just feels so clean and less heavy. It’s hard to explain.

Healthcare is tenfold better in Australia.
Education is better in the UK & Scotland.
Lifestyle is better in Australia, especially for families.
Culture is better in the UK & Scotland.
Work life balance is better in Aus.
Comedy is better in the UK and Scotland.

Dangerous???? How so?

Some of these comments about Australia are hilarious! I'm in Perth where one in every three people is born overseas... Australia is one of the most multicultural countries in the world and sydney one of the most multicultural cities! The amount of cultural experiences available in Sydney and every major Australian city is unparalleled and most of the time free of charge.
I love visiting Sydney, but I couldn't live there due to the high density, living and expense, nor could I live in Melbourne due to the cold weather. If you are going to consider Australia, I would suggest Perth as it's closer to the UK - direct flights to London as well, and only four hours from Sydney.
I couldn't live in Edinburgh due to the cold weather, but that's the main reason I left the UK in the first place !

I definitely agree with the air feeling different here in Aus. Every time I return to Australia from Europe or the US, the air here just feels so clean and less heavy. It’s hard to explain.

I remember the first couple of trips back after visiting Spain and England (I have family there), and how the air felt so clean and fresh smelling. As you say, it's hard to explain until you experience it.

It's because if the eucalyptus trees!

I’d definitely go for Edinburgh. There’s no way I’d move my family so far across the world at this age especially if I had to work FT and I wasn’t used to the weather (the heat isn’t all it’s cracked up to be!)

In the worst case imagine you wanted to come back & DH disagreed? Your children would be Australian citizens and you would be stuck there with them.

Another con for Sydney is that it is so far from other countries. I’d prefer to live somewhere that I can easily travel to Europe.

Sydney. Not many people get the chance.

Go there for a few years and move back?
Will be hard as his mother will only get old though.

I spent a month in a suburb of Sydney this past June considering whether I could move there for a relationship.

I decided against it 😭 as it was too big a risk to leave what I have gained here.

However, other things I noticed:

1. It was freezing there!! When it was 3°c outside it was 6°c indoors. Very little insulation, no double glazing. Got In contrast, where I live in the UK it hasn't gone above 0°C for a week and my house has stayed at 13.5°c even when the heating is off.

2. It was very nice and tidy, clean etc. Pretty suburbs, people look after their houses. But kind of dull. Not much to do, even to go and look at a town that had arty shops was a 2 hour drive each way.

3. The scenery is stunning and majestic. But in the summer it is too hot to enjoy. It rained constantly and torrentially for days and weeks on end this year summer and winter - and many people were flooded out several times. Two years ago the fires made it hard to go outside. Climate change will mean more of this.

4. It is very expensive - not just housing but food, laundry stuff, clothing. More expensive than the UK. Gas, electricity and petrol are cheaper than here though, although petrol has gone up over there a lot. House insurance is way more expensive.

5. It is so very far away from the rest of the world, and it felt it. I realised how amazing it is to be able to hop on a plane or train to different European countries and be in another culture in a couple of hours.

6. I am sure you have a good marriage relationship but if it were to break down and you were living in Australia you may not be allowed to bring the kids back to the UK

I would love to live in Edinburgh, the cold weather does put me off but sadly, with climate change it will get warmer.

I’m always puzzled by the “lack of culture” comments about Sydney. DD and I went to see the ballet at the Opera House yesterday (and got stunning water views to boot) and are going to the theatre tonight. DH and I have tickets for a musical and the Messiah next week. I find things like theatre much more accessible here than I ever did living in England and not particularly expensive if you buy at pre-sales/special offers/end of run. We have been here for 15 years, my three kids are now adults and love it. When they visit the UK they say “nice to visit but not to live”. At the end of the day though it is a long way from the UK and that doesn’t work for everyone. I would say though that it sounds like your DH has been away from home a long time so maybe it is his turn for family. Best of luck whatever you decide.

I love Edinburgh but I do find the grey-ness of it too much so not sure I could live there full time. It rains an awful lot too. Having said that, there is no way I'd move my kids to Australia. It's so depressing to not be able to be outside and doing stuff all year around because of the heat and the UV radiation. Staying in on a sunny day is far worse that staying in on a rainy grey day. It's also very likely that we will see more frequent pandemics in the decades to come and I'd not be happy being locked down to that degree on an island.

Lastly, I wouldn't want to get my kids settled in a place that most likely will be more or less unhabitable in their lifetime. I'd rather they settled near family since MIL in Aus won't be around by then anyway.

Based on that I'd choose Edinburgh.

Doesn't Australia has some funky rules which make it impossible to move back to the UK with your child if your relationship breaks down and your DH fights for custody with Australian citizenship?