Lived experience re racism on Mumsnet

[lightlypoached]

People on a now suspended/ soon to be deleted thread may know why I'm posting this. I was going to post it there but will start a new (soon to be suspended /deleted I'm sure) thread here instead.

At work we did some 'lived experience' sessions where people openly talked about their everyday experiences of sexism , racism and homophopia. The idea was for everyone to listen to the truth of what was being said, and to learn from it. The 'rules' were that you weren't allowed to challenge someone's story as it is their experienced truth. Questions were welcomed and we all learned a great deal. It was a real eye opener.

It helped me to be more aware and to look out for the more insidious words and actions, so that I would not unwittingly do them, and could call others out if I spotted it.

If ever I see racism on here I'll report but the point is that many (a large majority I suspect) of us are white so we don't always understand or see racism (that's a bit shit, but honest).

I think that some 'lived experience' sharing would help immensely. We could have a one-off special thread that would be allowed to refer to content of old threads as well as real life so we can hear specific types of comment that are problematical, and get under the skin of why. Strict rules on contributions though and no debate - all about listening and learning. We could have that as a pinned thread for people to read and learn from.

Is that a daft idea or could it work?

I'd like to be on a site where everyone feels at home , listened to and respected.

So AIBU to suggest we have a one off lived experience thread about racism ?

Well, if you believe the tyre burst and there was a man there, why not additionally believe he called her “love” and offered to change it? The poster isn’t offering an interpretation: she presented information. Your response chooses to take some of that information at face value (man, tyre) and ignore the other part (love, the offer).

I do get what you’re saying about “why accept some lived experiences and not others?” but it’s contextual. On a thread about sexism and misogyny, for example, I’m not interested in a man’s lived experience of sexism and misogyny – because it’s irrelevant in that context. It’s derailing and whataboutery.

I should clarify it's only some Irish names like Niamh (pronounced Neeve) that I have had to learn as an adult.

I absolutely do not mind if people ask me several times how to pronounce or spell my name. When I arrived in this country, I did not know how to pronounce Siobhan properly:) But I don't like it when they immediately go "Oh, I just can't be expected to deal with that name". It would be a dull world if we were all called Tom or Mary.

Of course I could take it at face value land often I would but I don’t think that ‘lived experience’ or anecdotes as we used to call them, are a useful way of tackling structural issues of inequality in society. If you want to read peoples tales of woe, so you can burnish your allyship credentials, then crack on but I think it leads to a fetishisation of victimhood and is really unhelpful

I will also bite. I am Irish.

My first job was in London in the 1990s, during the last IRA bombing campaign when Canary Wharf was bombed.

After the bomb, the police toured offices to give safety advice etc. My boss at the time reported me to the police as he thought they should know there was an Irish person working there.

I left that job soon after without telling them why. But after 9/11 I challenged any colleague who expressed suspicions about muslims.

OMG!

Next you’ll be told you can’t definitely say the person who wanted to call you K was being racist and lazy (they might just use the first letter for everyone!) and that repeatedly being sat next to the only other south asian attendee could be a completely innocent coincidence, you can’t tell for sure

How about a thread celebrating bringing people of all colours and faiths together,
celebrating the common good
celebrating ,ways to connect with each other rather than separate us
moving forward as just a human race wanting the best for each other and the planet ..
but what do I know ,im just a mum

Your post is very this:

No thanks.

Why is it my responsibility to share my experiences in order to educate white people who, will then go on to say that im over reacting and racism isn't that bad?

I guarantee on this thread, there will be someone getting all uppity because "people are too sensitive and they can't say anything without offending anyone"

I'm not there as a side show for white people to come and look at and to share stories, just to try and educate white people who absolutely arent racist because they don't see colour.

Its getting boring now.

Why are you loving the term white people on this thread?

For one minute I thought you were going to say white people is racist bit then I realise no one is that stupid or ignorant ..

I don’t want to read those tales of woe and I agree it’s fetishisation; in fact it’s my first post in this thread that I thought it was a bad idea, at which point you told me that view was performative allyship. So it’s performative to want the tales and performative not to, from what I’m getting from you.

@lightlypoached
As mentioned in my post it helped me at work to understand a perspective I never usually see and it allowed my colleagues who chose to talk (no one was forced, or forced to attend) about how things are for them, what drives them nuts

You are underestimating the extent to which minorities end up feeling obliged to participate, knowing that there will be that slight hesitation, slight pause when you are asked and say 'no'. Because you are not playing the game, after all how can middle class white liberals possibly be expected to understand my experience if I don't spill my guts on a regular basis? Then they expect plaudits for sitting and listening, even though there is rarely any identifiable change in behaviour.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

As a woman in heavily male dominated industry I have often shared my experiences with other women in mentoring and women's groups. What you are describing is the equivalent of "the totty" being shared out for the entertainment of men - my life experiences are not available for virtue signalling (usually) white, MC liberals who could get exactly the same information by reading up on the subject.

@SomebodyMcSomebody That's awful but can well believe it. Lived in Kilburn in the 90s and the worst we got really was 'fucking Jocks' (which was very often!) but it was just a hideous time for Irish communities in London.

For sure. My manager was pissed off with me that I wasn’t playing the game. The game is to get him (a mediocre white man already promoted way beyond his abilities) his next promotion.

Why can’t people just read the information that people have already put out there?
There’s loads.
I found ”Natives” by Akala very informative.

This is so sad.

@808Kate1 Thanks Kate. I was told by our office manager who was shocked. My boss apparently pointed at her and said ‘Should we tell them (the police) about it?’

I was ‘it’.

She was horrified, but frankly I wish she had not told me. I was so mortified and stunned, I couldn’t tell anyone. I didn’t think my English friends would understand, or worried that they too might judge me.

But now, when we did have workplace racism sharing stories, I feel unable to share mine as being anti-Irish isn’t counted as racism. Even though Ireland was also colonised and exploited and denigrated as inferior. I appreciate others have it worse, but I still consider that was racist, and blatantly so.

Summary so far re lived experience comments on this thread:

• some people hate lived experience in the workplace (but not much expressed about how/whether it might work on here?)

• some are worried that shared stories would be taken by the fecking daily fecking mail

• some people feel that being asked for their experience is not appropriate, is painful, sometimes upsetting and that data can be got from other sources so please don't ask them to do it (again!)

• some people think it's perfomative, virtue signalling and an indulgence for the white middle classes

• and a couple think that it's not a valid approach at all.

• some people think it's a good idea

Did I miss any themes?

An interesting mix of opinion. Clearly a difficult and divisive subject.

It's given me a bit to think about, especially in a work context (I'm not HR or DandI lead, just care about equality and decent treatment of people). It's also offered up a couple of good sources to read (thanks for those suggestions).

Yes bloody awful 😣

MN moderators need to be more aware that would be better

but they are defensive and seem to feel they are doing things correctly

there is always room for improvement

The idea that everyone who is offended by something is automatically in the right is hugely dangerous

IME this can also be an issue when conflicting "isms" come into play - something which can send MN into a tailspin

I've mentioned this on here before, but when training I was lucky enough to get a particular, very senior lady in the sector to address the group, only to receive a demand for her removal from one of the men present because he considered that being tutored by a woman was deeply offensive

As it happened he was asian and a muslim - something he emphasised very strongly in an attempt to justify his stance - but between sex and race I've often wondered which protected characteristic some would consider the priority