Lived experience re racism on Mumsnet

[lightlypoached]

People on a now suspended/ soon to be deleted thread may know why I'm posting this. I was going to post it there but will start a new (soon to be suspended /deleted I'm sure) thread here instead.

At work we did some 'lived experience' sessions where people openly talked about their everyday experiences of sexism , racism and homophopia. The idea was for everyone to listen to the truth of what was being said, and to learn from it. The 'rules' were that you weren't allowed to challenge someone's story as it is their experienced truth. Questions were welcomed and we all learned a great deal. It was a real eye opener.

It helped me to be more aware and to look out for the more insidious words and actions, so that I would not unwittingly do them, and could call others out if I spotted it.

If ever I see racism on here I'll report but the point is that many (a large majority I suspect) of us are white so we don't always understand or see racism (that's a bit shit, but honest).

I think that some 'lived experience' sharing would help immensely. We could have a one-off special thread that would be allowed to refer to content of old threads as well as real life so we can hear specific types of comment that are problematical, and get under the skin of why. Strict rules on contributions though and no debate - all about listening and learning. We could have that as a pinned thread for people to read and learn from.

Is that a daft idea or could it work?

I'd like to be on a site where everyone feels at home , listened to and respected.

So AIBU to suggest we have a one off lived experience thread about racism ?

Except your post is an example of not being a racist isn't enough you have to be 'anti-racist' or you will offend.

I am also loving the term "white people" on a thread about racism.

And I don't believe that all people are treated the same regardless of their identity by all people, institutions etc.

Genuinely not trying to start a fight, but how do you justify which ‘lived experiences’ you validate and which you dismiss? And do you not think that by doing this you are merely reinforcing whatever views/prejudices you already have?

That's helpful. I'll look it up. Thanks.

No, I very much am. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. So why don’t you address that.

Sometimes it feels like "my ism trumps your ism" when the reality is that every minority group experiences the same negative behaviour - and sometimes from each other.

The trouble is, whether in good faith or not, the comparison is valid and raises an uncomfortable truth which people dont want to consider. Which is why you're dismissing it out of hand

there is a thread somewhere on the site about a twitter post made by Natwest. It would appear to be validating/respecting another post about adult babies, who role play incest and CSA.

Where is the line that is required to make clear that that being disapproving of that behaviour and not being 'respected' by wider society is not a valid lived experience to relay.

Is someone being treated a certain way because of their identity or is someone being treated a certain way because of something they are doing that society disapproves of.

If someone who is gay/black/disabled etc is behaving anti socially, criminally or whatever it is, is their treatment because of their characteristics or is it because of what they are doing? To question that means I am dismissing (perhaps) someones claimed lived experience if they feel its becuase of their characteristics.

no it isn’t an example of that - re read the post and point out where I say what you mention. And I didn’t use “white people” in my post.
and grab the nearest dictionary and look up the definition of ‘racism’

Even this is riddled with assumptions. I am not clear if you are a WOC or white @lightlypoached but as a woc I can tell you that I person don’t have an issue with ‘can I touch your hair’ or ‘where are you from’. I know that many other woc do find that offensive. But the fact that you refer to it as ‘the obvious stuff’ as if it is a universally agreed fact is half the issue.

Bringing this thread back on topic.

This is a thread about a suggested approach for racism on Mumsnet.

I am sure that some men have changed their behaviour and have called out other men's behaviour after hearing the experiences of women talking about the experiences they have faced.

I can imagine that some people have read threads on MN and on conversations that have appeared in the media and reflected on their behaviours and those of colleagues towards other people whose experiences they have read about.

@dollymixtured And there you go. I've learned something and challenged my assumptions.

Helpful. (And that's not sarcasm).

You must feel so patronised. You should tell them how patronising they are too!

@BacklogBritain why wow?

I had always thought that my examples were obvious and accepted racist, offensive behaviours. Seems not always. 🤷‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️.

but if someone is being subject to comments or behaviour due to a perceived difference the person making the offence doesn't have the right to say it wasn't intended that way....if someone is othering someone, or being racist or insensitive or homophobic - its the person experiencing this whose feelings are valid. Otherwise we can all say what we want, with no consequence for the impact / influence on others.

I said that the term "white people" was used on the thread, So your request for me to reread is somewhat Ironic.

And which definition would you like?
There is the sociology definition and there is the individual definition?

I have noticed a lot of racists like the sociology definition as it absolves them of their racism.

If people with those characteristics commit a crime, to use your example, they should deal with proportionate consequences.

Eg charging George Floyd with whatever crime corresponds to using fake currency to pay for goods would not have been racist, also as long as it is not the case that only those who are black/a minority (or other protected characteristic) are the only ones who are charged with what is otherwise a ‘petty’ crime.

why are pp bringing paedophiles, the KKK, those who like to role play CSA, etc into a thread about racism? Why do you feel the need to digress so wildly and bring these criminal/immoral elements into the discussion?

newsflash - we can all say what we want (within the law). Your hurt feelings/offense/upset are for you to manage they might be reasonable they might not. The idea that everyone who is offended by something is automatically in the right is hugely dangerous.

Have a good day and enjoy yourself playing avoidance games

@GCAcademic that's sounds bloody horrible.

I can totally relate to the 'I just want to do my job, be recognised fairly for it, and have the same opportunities as everyone else without having to analyse and think about it all the fecking time'. Or be touted as the diversity woman in the organisation to tick a box. I get it. There are times though where (the sexism (in my case) has just become too much and I've had to expose it. It's all just so exhausting.

I agree with you but I never dared to say it because I'm white. I feel that constantly pointing out difference in skin colour makes discrimination worse. Of course any racism should be combated but if there's nothing going on then we shouldn't go on about the difference between people but just go on with our lives together.

Because people are making blanket statements about how ‘lived experience’ should just be unquestioningly validated and accepted as correct.

A poster made the point that validating someones lived experience is a flawed concept because its not a neutral issue. If you validate and respect and believe someones lived experience that goes across the board and that includes apparent lived experiences of people like those you mention

Therefore it is not a concept that is universally accepted and nor should it be

Someone else has mentioned that people's feelings are valid. Are they? Who says? Feelings are notoriously unreliable.

I think that sharing very personal experiences on a public forum, where lazy journalists regularly copy and paste posts into articles for popular news websites, is a bad idea.