Lived experience re racism on Mumsnet

[lightlypoached]

People on a now suspended/ soon to be deleted thread may know why I'm posting this. I was going to post it there but will start a new (soon to be suspended /deleted I'm sure) thread here instead.

At work we did some 'lived experience' sessions where people openly talked about their everyday experiences of sexism , racism and homophopia. The idea was for everyone to listen to the truth of what was being said, and to learn from it. The 'rules' were that you weren't allowed to challenge someone's story as it is their experienced truth. Questions were welcomed and we all learned a great deal. It was a real eye opener.

It helped me to be more aware and to look out for the more insidious words and actions, so that I would not unwittingly do them, and could call others out if I spotted it.

If ever I see racism on here I'll report but the point is that many (a large majority I suspect) of us are white so we don't always understand or see racism (that's a bit shit, but honest).

I think that some 'lived experience' sharing would help immensely. We could have a one-off special thread that would be allowed to refer to content of old threads as well as real life so we can hear specific types of comment that are problematical, and get under the skin of why. Strict rules on contributions though and no debate - all about listening and learning. We could have that as a pinned thread for people to read and learn from.

Is that a daft idea or could it work?

I'd like to be on a site where everyone feels at home , listened to and respected.

So AIBU to suggest we have a one off lived experience thread about racism ?

Who are you to say it wasn’t an ism, before anything has even been shared

No, what's interesting is WE DON'T KNOW people's colour unless they tell us, so PP are responding to actual thoughts, not skin colour.

There will be many WOC posting here who seriously dislike being told they ought to be offended, or it's their job to educate white people, or reduce white guilt, or either celebrate their heritage/minimise it to appear less challenging to the parochially-minded, or who choose not to present as victims.
Just as there will be many who are sick to the back teeth of white people instructing them how they are allowed to feel, & telling them their experience of racism isn't real because "it wasn't intended".

Superb post, @GCAcademic

I'm another who believes it's important to learn about the experiences of others, though problems can arise it's done not to support but to burnish the credentials of the "listeners", who too often go on to insult everyone else on the back of their newly acquired "knowledge"

Ceaseless focus on "isms" gets us only so far, but IME plain old fashioned manners can often be more useful and tend to be pleasanter for all

Given that the rules on what is/isn't acceptable seem.to change by the hour, its probably not a good idea.
Keeping ones mouth firmly shut is the best way to avoid offending anyone, either intentionally or not

@AbsoluteYawns

As mentioned in my post it helped me at work to understand a perspective I never usually see and it allowed my colleagues who chose to talk (no one was forced, or forced to attend) about how things are for them, what drives them nuts.

I agree with a PP that 'performative' or forced initiatives can be bloody awful, counter productive and indulgent.

I do think there are challenges with the approach though - what one person finds acceptable, another finds abhorrent but even with that risk I think that open discussion helps to get issues out in the open where we can start address them.

It's just about listening and learning. Not everyone is the same and not everyone wants to participate. That's fine.

I do like the principle that truth has validity too. It may not be a widespread or representative truth, but if someone feels like that then they feel like that, and it matters.

I do remember back in the 70s and 80s where men at work would slyly say 'but I didn't mean to be offensive' . But they were. And I used to point out that intent was not the issue, that they had been offensive. To me. And that mattered. We have made progress on workplace sexism owing to people like me sharing what it's like to be a woman at work (it's just we didn't cal, it shared experience then, we just called it 'speaking up').

I've spent a lifetime as a woman working in a male dominated workplace and have struggled often with both blatant and insidious sexism. I welcome discussions where male colleagues can hear directly about how their attitudes, language and behaviour affect me, my performance and happiness at work. And in some cases some of them have actually listened, learned and changed. That how progress can be made.

Tell you what I think would be useful on MN and that’s limiting username changes. Someone can be a racist bellend on a thread, everyone takes note of the name so they know not to be baited in future, but then they get to disappear into the night with a quick name change so you don’t instantly recognise their tomfoolery elsewhere.

First post in! OP, they're not interested

I know that there are loads of resources out there in internet land. I was talking about having something in here that people can look at to help stamp out offence and unwitting (sometimes deliberate) racism.

Exactly this

@lightlypoached One resource that might be helpful is The Other Box – excellent diversity and bias training for the workplace that’s more about making people confront their own experiences and biases rather than making other people relive theirs.

I would agree with this. Most posters don’t use MN as an educational tool.

This thread is a shitshow. @MNHQ please, enough

@dollymixtured whataboutery.

Nice try. Sorry you aren’t able to engage.

No, the rules of what constitutes being non discriminatory and respectful towards others haven’t changed, it’s just that those who still have the levers of power in society are now being challenged about their discrimination and disrespect. Then people who don’t like being challenged or who don’t like to think before they speak say things like “the rules change by the hour so I’ll keep my mouth shut lest I offend someone” (implied: “those” people are over sensitive and don’t know what they want)

If you want to think of it like that, then yes.

And if you are sick of educating people then don't participate.

The previous thread discussion was all about the rise of racism in Mumsnet but because of the TAAT rule people couldn't be specific. I think (and I would find it useful) to be specific.

In my experience on sexism it's often the insidious less overt stuff that makes me angry and grind my teeth. And it may help to expose that so we can see it for what it is and how it feels to people affected by it.

@dollymixtured it's disingenuous false equivalence. So no it's not worth engaging with.

If ever I see racism on here I'll report but the point is that many (a large majority I suspect) of us are white so we don't always understand or see racism (that's a bit shit, but honest)

White people can experience racism too. I'm Welsh. During my time at work I've reported three people for racism: for continuing with their racist remarks even after I'd pointed out that they were racist, not funny, and very wearing when repeated ad infinitum.

Sorry, this seems very much like you are challenging the PPs ‘lived experience’ because you don’t agree. Tut tut, that’s not allowed.

No it’s really not. Either ‘lived experience’ is to be validated or it isn’t. You can’t just choose whose ‘lived experience’ you believe
in.

@dollymixtured then we will agree to disagree.

If someone says something happened to them / this is how they were treated, I believe them.

I can't say if it happened to them because of their identity.

But if more people share similar experiences. patterns build.

As disingenuous as your comments about listening to the lived experience of the KKK and paedophiles - you’re not engaging in good faith

Yep, all that corporate virtual signalling is truly shite. I hate it.

BUT the issue we have is that the people being racist don't think about what they are doing/saying and that often comes from ignorance of facts or how it feels to be someone else.

The obvious stuff is easy and everyone should know it (name calling , 'where are you from?' , 'can I touch your hair?' Etc). It's the more subtle stuff and the institutional things that need drawing out. I do think that this approach can help with that.

Take the 'Asian taxi driver' example from another thread. It was in my opinion an entirely spurious addition to the post. Totally irrelevant and the poster apologised. It was good that it was called out. She won't do that again, and other readers will have learned from it (I hope).

My suggestion is to get these types of examples in one place so we can stop this happening.