Be honest: Do you think single and childfree people are less than?

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I am that person.
It suits me.
But fucking hell do I get comments, questions and often it seems like I’m treated like a second-class citizen.

Do people still today look down on single / childfree people?

*You cannot erase the fact that experience is fundamentally individual, and any comparison as to the value or an experience can only be made with yourself. You go to Spain and love it, someone else will go to Spain and fucking hate it. Someone else will look at Spain, say ‘I think the fuck not’ and go to Croatia instead, because Spain doesn’t appeal, doesn’t have to appeal, and provides nothing inherently more valuable than not going to Spain. That is true when Spain is used as a metaphor for having children, as well as literally how different people will consider Spain.

You’re also speaking as if it’s established that experiencing both is preferable to experiencing only one, but that is an entirely subjective opinion, rather than a universal truth. Experiencing parenthood is not superiority over those that haven’t, any more than someone who has experienced being shot is superior to someone who has, well, dodged a bullet.*

I'm not trying to erase that experience is individual, but I am saying that there is also collective experiences e.g. wet today, yes I got soaked, me too etc. or indeed we went Spain last, Och so did we wasn't it fab etc etc.

And if you haven't experienced parenthood how can you be so sure it isn't a superiority over those that haven’t?

@Spottedslug and she's trying very hard.

@JorisBonson @Spottedslug

Sorry if you find it condescending but it's a point of view - you can either be offended by it or put a counter argument to it.

marmalard your second analogy is closer to what I think the OP was describing.

Like the childfree person thinking "god no, I don't like hot weather, your pictures make it look awful, the food sounds unappetising...that sounds like hell. Its not for me"

and person one repeatedly saying :
"I've been there so I'm right and you just don't know what you're missing. Forget that you know your own mind, you're own likes and dislikes, that from what I've described and what you've seen you have enough information to know if this sounds up your street. I MUST BE RIGHT because this is my own personal experience. Also ignore that whilst you haven't been to Spain you have been to lots of other places and done lots of other things, your experience is less than because its not the place I have allocated worth too."

For the record, I loved all my trips to Spain 😀

Yes I get what you mean.

I think though, and this where the analogy does fail, there isn't really anything to properly compare what having your own children is like.

Even other people having children isn't close to it.

It is a unique experience and a very difficult one to convey.

Collective experience….again, there’s no universal one, except possibly death and taxes. You know two people can experience exactly the same thing and come away with completely different opinions on it?

how can I be sure? Because it’s an entirely subjective judgement, as opposed to an established and objective truth. It is nothing more than a matter of opinion. I absolutely believe parenthood is superior to being childfree, for you. I also believe it wouldn’t be for me, based on my complete aversion to the prospect and that I see no value in it. You can of course speak of its value to you, but that has no bearing on me. What was superior for me was having an abortion when faced with being pregnant. Now, you may or may not have had one, but if you haven’t, does that mean I’m superior to you for having experienced that? Another example is that I live outside of the country I was born in, does that mean my life is superior to those that don’t? Of course not, it’s merely different.

And if you haven't experienced parenthood how can you be so sure it isn't a superiority over those that haven’t?

I could equally ask, if you have experienced parenthood, how can you be so sure it isn’t a superiority over those that haven’t? I know you feel you have experienced both and are equally qualified to pronounce about both, but you don’t know what it’s like to know you’ll never have children - either because you don’t want them, ever, or because you can’t have them.

Everybodys experience is different anyway. My friend a single mum with one child had a different experience from the married woman I know with six children.

TBH I'm basing what I said from conversations with people who have no children.
I didn't say anything about the amount of holidays child free people have, I said I'd want to know about their holidays, because holidaying with children isn't the same as holidaying as a single woman. I've only ever holidayed with my children.

marmalard it's interesting because in my real life relationships (and we've discussed it at length) it's agreed that having children is very much a personal experience but absolutely none of the mothers in that scenario have ever agreed with the premise that it's unfathomable, or that childfree people are incapable of understanding if it's for them without having experienced it.

It seems to be the line trotted out by women who just can't grasp that someone might feel differently than them, so they rationalise it as a lack of knowledge.

I sometimes feel sorry for my mates with kids tbh. A lot of them have piled on the weight as they don't have time to train 3-4 times a week like I do, and they don't have as much disposable income nowadays. Some look almost ten years older now.

All the above probably matters little to them as they adore their kids, but it's not a life that interests me if I'm honest. I've got a goddaughter/nieces/nephews as well as shitloads of cousins with kids. More than enough in my life to know I don't want my own.

Didn't mean the above post to sound bitchy!

To respond to one of the posters above, what a lot of my friends with kids will never experience is having freedom whilst being financially settled. A lot of them had kids in their late 20s/early 30s and never really continued pursuing their career. Those that did weren't able to live life with the freedom they would've had they been childfree with the same job. By the time they were high earners they had shitloads of commitments.

This thread has veered off a little, but I wanted to add something from a very personal perspective.

In these discussions, we often hear mothers / parents saying how they knew from a young age they wanted children, and yes, it's hard work, but they love their children.

We often see the childfree/childless reacting quite strongly and negatively about children and parenting. I can see where it may come from. Women are judged for not having or wanting children, and there's a tendency to react angrily, but I notice something.

I was diagnosed with a condition as a child meaning that I almost certainly wouldn't have children, so from a young age, I convinced myself that I didn't want children, and when I thought about it, I would focus on the drawbacks of having children.

I married DH who knew about my condition, and we imagined a child-free life, we had holidays and we made plans for how our life would be.

Then, in my 30s, a new treatment became available which raised the likelihood of having children. We discussed and eventually, we decided to go ahead. Here we are with 2 DC, who of course we love very much, even though it means less time in the gym, and fewer holidays and evenings out.

The point I make, very much from my own perspective, is when I see people react so viscerally against having children ("thank fuck") is that I question where it's coming from.

@HappinessAlley woah so nice you got a happy ending! You used the term you convinced yourself so basically you never made the choice not to have kids from a young age. That choice had been taken away from you sadly.

People who say they don't want kids as adults have made an informed choice so I think it's quite different and you can read from the thread people seem angry and defensive that society is questions their CHOICE.

@Closuretime Thanks. It's definitely the case I convinced myself I didn't want children as I had a very clear reason for being childless. My choice was forced.

However, when you say it's different from others who have made a choice not to have children, I don't think it's always quite so clear-cut. No-one makes a decision in the vacuum. We have all sorts of influences that shape our choices (medical history, childhood experiences, anxieties, our relationship history, etc).

From a purely personal perspective I do recognise (or suspect I recognise) something in some of the more strident responses, because I would have been the same at some point. That's not to say I can know what is behind anyone's decision. Just that it rings a bell in my mind.

when I see people react so viscerally against having children ("thank fuck") is that I question where it's coming from.

It's coming from the fact I have never wanted them and my contraception has been excellent to date. Simple as that.

You've hit the nail on the head! I know loads of women without kids that have very full and happy lives. They tell me about their jobs, hobbies, charity work (whatever makes them tick) and, yes, sometimes they'll complain around Christmas that they're bottom if the pile for time off - and I don't think they're 'less than'. The one or two who tell me they hate kids, never want them, think the planet is over populated - they're also the ones who get terribly upset and offended if people ask them if they're planning on kids or tell them they'll change their mind. The more they insist the problem is with everybody else, the less I'm convinced.

Hmm perhaps you have a point and they are the ones that change their mind and decide they would like kids last minute.

I definitely believe though that some people don't want kids and stick with that. Age is a big factor because 2 of my friends said they didn't want kids at 17. They now both have kids.

I think though at a certain age... you must know if you want kids and the clock is ticking.

@Popgoestheweaselagain Surely its pretty rude to tell people that they'll change their mind over any life decision

Imagine you said you were getting married/had a new job/ got a puppy and people told you were going to change your mind and people were open about how the thought youd regret it

I absolutely would listen to my close friends and family if they told me that they were concerned about the life choices i was making based on how well they knew me, eg. Dont marry him, or im worried that youve always wanted kids. However id be annoyed if susan in accounts who couldnt tell you my partners name let alone my family life, thinks that she knows my circumstances better than me and wants to warn me that ill change my mind

"Ive decided not to move to spain"
"Ah everyone says that but then you hit 30 and boom youll want to move to spain. I cant imagine my life if i hadnt moved to spain"
"Nah im pretty happy with my life as it is"
"Are you sure? Whos going to look after you when your old? I never knew true happiness till i moved to spain. Youll regret it"

Its an assumption that you dont know how to make the right choice for you

Its always with the undertone that you are making the wrong choice, and to be honest the people that question it tend to be completely random! People seem to assume that i wont have weighed it up myself or been aware of the consequences and that they should remind you

I imagine the same happens to people who say they are trying for a baby that people want to tell them all things about the choice they already know

Yes but I REALLY didn't want them so I'd have terminated. If you actually didn't want them you'd be sure it didn't happen, I'd have thought.

@Imobsessedwithsuccesion there's probably lots of women who don't want children but may have fallen pregnant by mistake. Your speaking hypothetically regarding terminating but you don't know because your not in that position, I'm personally not sure if I could terminate or not because I'm not faced with that.

" WHY did the mums give up their life. So not sure how your post correlates but I will bite.

Perhaps not wanting kids is easier if you are single and have not found the right person to settle down with.

I can't explain but motherhood has changed my life so I did not know what I was giving up though .. I didn't know DS dad was going to be shit, I had no idea of how looking after a baby is so tiring and then my relationship broke down. There's no guarantee.
I didn't know what motherhood entailed because I had NO EXPERIENCE just like you don't. So it seems simple right?

My contraception never failed me 🤣 I don't judge ya.... because I probably thought similar to you BUT now I'm a mum it's taught me a lot.

Life anything in life people do things with the best intentions and sometimes you genuinely didn't know! I love my child but some days I wish I could go BACK to my single life, it was not perfect but I only had myself to worry about.

Hope I've explained my opinion clear enough.

I get what you're saying but I'm also not single because I haven't found someone, I'm single because I choose to be. It's easy for me to be single because I don't want kids so I don't have to find a man to have them with. Everything people think about this feels back to front to me and hey, nothings perfect but we do have the ability to make choices, and I hate that people act like it just happened to them.

@Imobsessedwithsuccesion that's a lot of defensiveness that's coming from you. To be Frank it's none of your business how people became pregnant! Just like it's none of others business to why you don't want children.

This thread is interesting but it has become like the SAHM/working mum thread. It's nasty and it boils down to us all arguing about others choices, in life in you go around commenting.... People will do the same to you back also.

I don't know because I always wanted kids! But I'm just saying you don't know the full reality so for you to be childless I think your taking it far to start saying didn't you know what it entailed. No I bloody well didn't and I'm not ashamed to say possibly I may have turned the clock back.

Oh and I stuck to my 1 DC that's it. So I too see your point of not wanting kids and the drawbacks

People get tired of being patronized and dismissed. Depending on general temperament, current mood, and degree to which they’ve been subject to the aforementioned unpleasantries, this will often result in a strident response. It gets boring, and irritating, being a grown ass adult and getting treated like you’re poorly qualified when it comes to knowing yourself and your preferences.

People get strident and defensive all the time on MN when a stranger assumes a position of authority over them. This particular topic isn’t the only one to generate the reaction (see also wohm v sahm, formula feeding v breastfeeding, public v private, holidaying abroad versus staying in the UK etc).

Obviously being spoken down to, and being told you’re wrong for making a decision that is the best for you, leads to defensiveness. People can exhibit similar defensiveness yet have entirely different motivations. On a personal level, I’ve been pregnant and I aborted as soon as I was able to. I can’t have children now, but that’s because I voluntarily yeeted my tubes specifically to achieve that outcome. So no, our situations are not comparable at all.