Page 18 | Be honest: Do you think single and childfree people are less than?

Popgoestheweaselagain · 30/11/2022 15:42

HerMajestysRoyalCoven · 30/11/2022 15:20

@Popgoestheweaselagain I actually do realise this. My mum was one of those people who walked that “difficult path” of not being brave enough to recognise that she shouldn’t have had kids. She is an abusive alcoholic who spent my childhood telling me she regretted having kids, and we no longer speak.

I don’t have sympathy for those people. They may well be walking a difficult path, but it’s of their own making. I have sympathy for the kids who get fucked up in the process. I chose not to have kids because my chances of perpetrating the cycle were too great, and because I’ve no idea what good mothering looks like. I absolutely class that as a brave decision, and I’m really proud of it.

OK, I see what you mean, but then I wouldn't describe that as a 'lifestyle choice'. Some women don't have children because they're mental health isn't good enough. Which isn't the same thing, but is similar. There's quite a big difference between seeing children as one option in the supermarket of life, then getting offended when people question that approach, and being brave enough to recognise your own limitations.

I'm sorry you had such a painful experience. I hope you've found other things in your life that give you joy.

Popgoestheweaselagain · 30/11/2022 15:50

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 14:45

People can take multiple maternity leaves but they can pay for it themselves, just like the rest of us do when our lifestyle choices necessitate time off work.

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Having children is not a lifestyle choice. Going to live in Majorca us a lifestyle choice.

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 15:52

Human beings have been able to reliably control our fertility for 100 years, and abstinence has always been available. Parenthood is most definitely a lifestyle choice.

Passthecheeseboard · 30/11/2022 15:52

HerMajestysRoyalCoven · 30/11/2022 14:12

I’m currently on reduced hours due to burnout (ironically incurred through covering parent colleagues during the pandemic) and trauma. I’m constantly being badgered about when I’m going to increase my hours, reminded that the business takes priority etc.

My parent colleagues had their time made up for free for 2 years, no questions asked. Many of them have had multiple 1 year maternity leaves, on generous provision.

But a sick person? So selfish to the needs of the business. :(

Sorry to hear this, I think discrimination against the childfree is very common place in the workplace. In all my jobs the childfree employees have to pick up the slack for the parent employees… It’s really unfair

Popgoestheweaselagain · 30/11/2022 15:59

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 15:33

It's a bit diificult not to feel that the flip side of that is the implication that at least some women have children because they're just not brave enough to resist the social pressure. Maybe a few do - but anybody who does that has chosen a very difficult path -

I have huge amounts of sympathy for women who caved into the social pressure to have children, because let's face it, it's relentless. We can see that on here. The pity, the feeling that something's missing in your life, that something's wrong with you, that you can't or won't do something that's done by millions. Add to that the taboo on admitting that if you had your time again you wouldn't have children and I can see why a lot of people, men AND women, cave in.

much more difficult than having to bat away a few ignorant comments. I think if the childless-by-choice fully realised this they wouldn't be so bothered by the social pressure or judgement they sometimes feel

Except it's not just a few ignorant comments and it's not sometimes the childless by choice get this. I was lucky - I was reared by a GM and DM who I suspect didn't find motherhood that fulfilling and who never said anything to me about my personal choice; which didn't stop aunts, colleague, neighbours all having their say the minute I hit my twenties.

When you hit your twenties! Blimey! Were you even in a serious relationship, then? Did you havea steady job? Sure, some peop look e have children in their twenties or even their teens, but it's hardly weird for a woman in her 20s twenties to not be a mother.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 16:06

@Popgoestheweaselagain It was the 70s, I think the thinking was I'd got all that pesky education (university) out of the way, now I could settle down to a nice job and having babies.

One relative by marriage started when I was in my teens. Every time she saw me, she'd ask 'Are you courting yet?' Nope, sorry, Brenda. Got exams and stuff to do.

butterfliedtwo · 30/11/2022 16:07

Popgoestheweaselagain · 30/11/2022 15:50

Having children is not a lifestyle choice. Going to live in Majorca us a lifestyle choice.

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Having children is absolutely a lifestyle choice.

donttalkaboutbookclub · 30/11/2022 16:08

People are incredibly intensive and rude asking questions about this. A friend of mine says she still gets asked why she didn't have children and she is now 70. She hates it.

marmalard · 30/11/2022 16:13

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 14:52

I know that sounds smug, patronising etc etc. but it is the thought that goes through my mind when I meet child free people

Yeah, you're dead right, it does. Want to hear what goes through my mind when I meet parents? 'Thank fuck I avoided that.'

Yeh except I know they life you are living, you don't know what's it like to have children.

Therefore I have a perspective you don't, and never will have.

Also child free people being annoyed that people who have children get mat leave - I mean what?! Do you have any idea what's it like having a baby? No, no you don't. But we know what it like to have no parental responsibility.

So boohoo you don't get paid time off for... what exactly?!

If you've literally taken the physical toll of carrying and birthing a baby then yeh, that will then potentially be breastfed, then yeh, sorry you do need time off.

Chimna · 30/11/2022 16:19

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 14:45

People can take multiple maternity leaves but they can pay for it themselves, just like the rest of us do when our lifestyle choices necessitate time off work.

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So just because something doesn't suit your lifestyle, noone should be aloud to benefit from it? It's not a race to the bottom. Maternity leave is not some kind of relaxing holiday.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 16:21

Therefore I have a perspective you don't, and never will have

To be absolutely clear, I do not want, and never have wanted, the perspective you have as a parent. Because I never wanted to be one. Saying that 'you never will have it' as if I'm lacking some superior wisdom bestowed only on parents is pointless. I don't want that perspective in the first place.

No idea what the rest of that was about, I think you meant it for someone else.

CambsAlways · 30/11/2022 16:24

No,why on earth would I think that each to their own

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 16:25

Chimna · 30/11/2022 16:19

So just because something doesn't suit your lifestyle, noone should be aloud to benefit from it? It's not a race to the bottom. Maternity leave is not some kind of relaxing holiday.

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We have too many people on this planet as it is. Continually rewarding those who choose to contribute to the overpopulation problem, at the expense of those who choose not to, is ridiculous in the 21st century.

Those who insist that one child isn't enough should not be further susidized by employers or the government. It's just wrong when species are dying out each day, rainforests are being devastated, coral reefs becoming extinct, global warming affecting agriculture and economies, and many resources becoming ever more scarce. Public policy and social norms have to change swiftly to avoid certain disaster.

LynLynette · 30/11/2022 16:26

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 15:52

Human beings have been able to reliably control our fertility for 100 years, and abstinence has always been available. Parenthood is most definitely a lifestyle choice.

That makes it a choice, not a lifestyle choice. And we can’t 100% control fertility either.
A lifestyle choice is a stupid way to describe the decision to procreate. Fair enough, not everyone wants to do it but reproduction is a biological fact of life. If few enough people decided to do it, we would eventually become extinct.
It’s also really insensitive to those who desperately want kids but can’t make that particular “lifestyle choice”.
People are entitled not to respect others people’s decisions and opinions about having kids and I think it’s wrong for anyone to be discriminated for having or not having them but they are a fact of life. They exist and someone has to have them. If a person doesn’t have them, they still were one at some stage. As a society, we have to support children by supporting the people who are responsible for them (and anybody who has responsibility for looking after any other person/ people) because that’s how societies work.

KimberleyClark · 30/11/2022 16:34

fairydustt · 30/11/2022 14:25

But people who are childfree/less will end up having experiences that they wouldn't have had if they had had children.. so whilst maybe they have 'missed out' on certain things they wanted to experience, those with children have also 'missed out' on other things they could have experienced. There's no need to be feeling sorry for people because they haven't had the exact same experiences as you

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This. I was able to avail myself of my employer’s early retirement package aged 58 - I would not have been in a position to do that if I’d had children.

ipreferthecat · 30/11/2022 16:35

@marmalard but why are you so proud of being smug and patronising

You have your life you can't possibly know what someone else's life is like with our without children

Utterly ghastly

KimberleyClark · 30/11/2022 16:39

I know what a life without kids entails (had my children late) and I now know what life is like with children.

No you don’t know what a whole life without children is. You won’t know what it’s like to be childless in your 50s or 60s or in old age. All you know is your life pre children.

marmalard · 30/11/2022 16:39

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 16:21

Therefore I have a perspective you don't, and never will have

To be absolutely clear, I do not want, and never have wanted, the perspective you have as a parent. Because I never wanted to be one. Saying that 'you never will have it' as if I'm lacking some superior wisdom bestowed only on parents is pointless. I don't want that perspective in the first place.

No idea what the rest of that was about, I think you meant it for someone else.

It's not superior wisdom, it's knowing what life is like without child, and what life is like with children - just lived experience - that you don't have.

The whole feeling "less than" experience of child free people, is basically because you are not talking from a position of experience. Harsh as that sounds, it's true.

People with kids can compare the two different lifestyles, better than you can compare being childfree and having kids.

You can say "I never wanted that perspective" but basically until you've had children you don't really know what you're talking about, because you don't know what having kids entails.

Like I said before I appreciate this all sounds very patronising. I think most people who have kids would say they had no idea what it entailed until they had them.

And "the rest" was the comments before and after yours saying that mat leave was unfair towards the child free.

Popgoestheweaselagain · 30/11/2022 16:41

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 30/11/2022 16:25

We have too many people on this planet as it is. Continually rewarding those who choose to contribute to the overpopulation problem, at the expense of those who choose not to, is ridiculous in the 21st century.

Those who insist that one child isn't enough should not be further susidized by employers or the government. It's just wrong when species are dying out each day, rainforests are being devastated, coral reefs becoming extinct, global warming affecting agriculture and economies, and many resources becoming ever more scarce. Public policy and social norms have to change swiftly to avoid certain disaster.

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And just when I was coming round to the idea that I just hadn't understood the pressures and difficulties child free (as opposed to childless) women faced ... the baby hatred comes out. You all enjoy your child-free life, but don't expect me to sympathise. I'm through with this.

ArcheryAnnie · 30/11/2022 16:42

Having a child is one of the most profoundly selfish, narcissistic acts any of us can do. And yes, I have a child!

I have a friend who was dithering about whether she should have a child or not. In the end she decided not to. And I was secretly glad, because if she had a kid she'd have had less time to do the remarkable good that she does in the world - she really does make the world a better place for all of us, in a way few other people could replicate. Whereas, barring fertility issues, most of us can squeeze out a child or two if we try hard enough.

My kid is everything to me. He's a fantastic kid. But I don't fool myself that having him makes me better than any childfree woman.

Spottedslug · 30/11/2022 16:44

marmalard · 30/11/2022 16:13

Yeh except I know they life you are living, you don't know what's it like to have children.

Therefore I have a perspective you don't, and never will have.

Also child free people being annoyed that people who have children get mat leave - I mean what?! Do you have any idea what's it like having a baby? No, no you don't. But we know what it like to have no parental responsibility.

So boohoo you don't get paid time off for... what exactly?!

If you've literally taken the physical toll of carrying and birthing a baby then yeh, that will then potentially be breastfed, then yeh, sorry you do need time off.

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Ummm but no ones asking you to have a child. That's your choice. Do I respect your choice? Sure, you do you. As I will make decisions that are best for me.

But expecting others to give you a virtual medal for you carrying the physical burden of your choice? Nope. Just as you have shown little understanding of why childfree women may feel discriminated and put upon in the workplace. What might we want paid leave for you ask? I could think of a multitude of reasons, to care for a sick relative perhaps?

Greggsyumyumsmum · 30/11/2022 16:45

Sonervousimgonnathrowup · 29/11/2022 10:13

I am that person.
It suits me.
But fucking hell do I get comments, questions and often it seems like I’m treated like a second-class citizen.

Do people still today look down on single / childfree people?

Absolutely not,
Now you would be the friend who I'd live vicariously through, I'd want to know what you fill your life with! I'd want to know all about your holidays, and the sleep you manage.
I appreciate that the life I chose isn't for everyone...some days I think people must be insane to choose to get married and have children.

MarshaBradyo · 30/11/2022 16:47

LynLynette · 30/11/2022 16:26

That makes it a choice, not a lifestyle choice. And we can’t 100% control fertility either.
A lifestyle choice is a stupid way to describe the decision to procreate. Fair enough, not everyone wants to do it but reproduction is a biological fact of life. If few enough people decided to do it, we would eventually become extinct.
It’s also really insensitive to those who desperately want kids but can’t make that particular “lifestyle choice”.
People are entitled not to respect others people’s decisions and opinions about having kids and I think it’s wrong for anyone to be discriminated for having or not having them but they are a fact of life. They exist and someone has to have them. If a person doesn’t have them, they still were one at some stage. As a society, we have to support children by supporting the people who are responsible for them (and anybody who has responsibility for looking after any other person/ people) because that’s how societies work.

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I would say choice rather than lifestyle choice too.

On the flip side do people who are childfree think their choice is a lifestyle one?

marmalard · 30/11/2022 16:48

KimberleyClark · 30/11/2022 16:39

I know what a life without kids entails (had my children late) and I now know what life is like with children.

No you don’t know what a whole life without children is. You won’t know what it’s like to be childless in your 50s or 60s or in old age. All you know is your life pre children.

True. I don't know what it's like to be childfree in your 50s and 60s, but I've had 22 years of being a childfree adult.

If you are childfree you won't have had 22 years of experiencing what it's like to have a child.

I therefore still have a better sense of what a childfree life is like, than what you have of people with children.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 30/11/2022 16:54

You can say "I never wanted that perspective" but basically until you've had children you don't really know what you're talking about, because you don't know what having kids entails

I don't care what it entails. How many more times??

Like I said before I appreciate this all sounds very patronising

Yes it does. Why do you keep doing it? why are you under the impression that I give parents any more thought than 'Thank fuck I swerved that?'