Shamima Begum's mother

[AddingUp]

I read an article about Shamima Begum's mother in the Daily Mail. I am very much in the camp that Shamima Begum should come back to the UK and be trialed here as her crimes.

Anyway, the mother says how close she was with Shamima and how she misses her etc.

If I were Shamima Begum's mum and my daughter was not allowed into the UK, I would travel to the refugee camp to be with her. Or, I would take my daughter to Bangladesh just to be with her and not leave her on her own.

I don't understand why Shamima Begum's mum takes no action to support her daughter!

Begum Fans? I support a fair,balanced judiciary and adherence process
Measure of a democracy is how we deal with criminality and dysfunction. What process and sanction we apply. Removing her UK citizenship was ill judged and against all established protocols. It’s possible to find her behaviour loathsome and still want to maintain a fair and just process for managing this. If returned to UK She’ll need to be monitored, denied access to vulnerable others whom she may try to radicalise and she probably poses a security threat given her current & past ideologies

(sorry am going through the thread and am posting as things occur)

Don't you mean allegedly had 3 babies die, tenbob?
Personally I've no idea if it happened or not, but surprising as it might seem, some who hope to tug at the heartstrings in pursuit of something they want aren't always entirely truthful

But you're happy to believe she's committed actual acts of terror without evidence which is information from people with an agenda? (to turn it round)

I find it hard to have sympathy for her, she's not cute, she interviews badly and she has made some appalling statements. But she should come here and face trial and have justice served.

But Jack Letts was white and and was stripped of his British citizenship, that was the point of the post I was responding to.

SB had a right to Bangladeshi citizenship through her father, she simply had to apply for it before she was 21.

I actually don’t really know where I stand in this issue. I get why people think she should be brought back and understand why people think she shouldn’t.

But your post makes no sense.

’i would do anything for my kids’ has no relation to this at all. SB isn’t everyone else’s child.

People will always feel differently to someone else’s child as they would their own. Regardless of skin colour.

SB wasn’t manipulated or blackmailed into joining isis. There was a still a form of grooming. However, being groomed into something that’s damaging to you is entirely different to being groomed into murder if other people.

Theres suggestions Myra Hindley was, in effect groomed by Ian Huntley. Still doesn’t mean she didn’t know exactly what she was doing.

I am mixed race. South Asian and Northern Irish. I don’t believe this is about race for most people. She has no remorse. She doesn’t even believe what she did was wrong. She simply believed that IS was corrupt so wanted out. She knew what she was going to support and participate in murdering people. That’s hugely different to being groomed into thinking an adult having sex with you is fine. The 2 are not the same.

I can understand people feeling sad that she had been led down a path where she thinks that’s ok. However, it doesn’t absolve her of what she did. I believe it was her own brother in law that pointed out that the government are likely aware of things the public and are best places to make decisions about her regarding national security.

how does it not make sense?
You have one thread with people literally saying they would stab their child's abuser to death because they would do anything for their child.
And you have another thread (and i am happy to say that there may be no crossover in posters to the threads) saying i would disown my kid.

She was 15. She was groomed. She needs to be brought back to face trial and if found guilty, the circumstances of her travel can be examined and sentencing applied accordingly.

MN is chock full of threads about 25 year olds who can't blow their own noses (hyperbole) and plenty of people thinking that's fine and mum can do it for the.
I'm pointing out the difference in opinion and wondering what that might be?

It doesn’t make sense because it’s not an equivalent.

Theres loads I would do for my own kids, that I wouldn’t do for someone else’s. There’s things I would do for my nieces and nephews, that I wouldn’t for other kids. There’s things I would do for my own child, that I wouldn’t do for my nieces and nephews.

It’s not unusual for people to view their own kids as more important than someone else’s. That’s got nothing to do with race. Which is what you said. People would do anything for their own kids but don’t care about her because of her race.

If my children were groomed, I would want to kill whoever did it. If they then went on to support and participate in murder, I would believe they had to face justice for that.

I don’t disagree that she should come back to face justice. As I said, I see both sides.

But your point that people would do a lot for their own kids but want something different for someone else and that must be based on skin colour makes no sense.

The question is: shouldn't her mother go to Syria to be with her daughter because i would because I'm a mum

That is the comparison

I understand that you were replying to the brown/white point.

but do you see the difference in the legality of stripping Jack Letts British citizenship and stripping Shamima Begums citizenship.

JL had dual citizenship, whilst SB didn't. I don't know why people find this difficult to understand. my kids are in exactly the same position which is maybe why it is obvious to me. they COULD apply for dual citizenship based on my husband's/their dads nationality. but they haven't. if they were to apply with a criminal record, that country wouldn't grant the citizenship.

having a parent with nationality of a country that allows dual citizenship is BASIS TO APPLY, it doesn't mean that you are automatically entitled to citizenship. I don't think any country grants citizenship to people once they have a criminal record, definitely not I'd they have been involved in terrorism

and that's the racism. people consider her less British because her parents are born in another country. people don't think we have to apply the correct law to SB because she is less British. however, reading this thread I am beginning to see that it might actually be genuine misunderstanding of the law, rather than racism. but if people refuse to understand when it is explained over and over, it kinda brings us full circle doesn't it

British citizenship can be stripped for fraud or national security but ONLY where the person is naturalised or has dual citizenship/won't be left stateless. SB wasn't naturalised, she was born in London. She didn't have dual citizenship, she is now stateless

Or they would at least have been prosecuted for neglect.

She must be thanking her lucky stars she is a person of colour, as the racism card can be played by daft twats.

👏👏

But we have let actual IS fighters back into the UK, didn’t you know that? Some are in prison, some are tagged but back in the community.

Nobody is saying she should come back and ride off into the sunset with no consequences whatsoever.

At the time her father went back to Bangladesh, proving that was the dual nationality of your children would have been as easy as providing a name and address at the airport (which he probably did). It's sickening how a violent, deranged adult can be infantilized by some posters to suit a wider agenda. I actually think that she should be tried in an international war crimes tribunal as she has perpetuated atrocities over many years and was quite senior within the hierarchy. Countries which have depleted their military budgets fighting people like that should all have input.

My husband and I both have dual nationality, our "other" nationality isn't the same so our kids could apply for two other nationalities but none of them have. Their children have now lost the opportunity to claim one of those nationalities. Lots of people never choose to take up dual nationality and some like Boris Johnson actively give up one of them. Maybe we could remove his British nationality and leave the Americans to deal with him.

What are you talking about? If somebody has ‘child rape and kidnap’ or ‘stabbed and shot’ someone, and they are a British citizen, they should be brought back to Britain. They are a problem, and they are our problem to be dealt with.

And as for saying anyone who has sympathy is as bad as a full blown terrorist, that just makes you sound stupid.

Removing her British passport was not against the law and the courts have so far found in favour of the state on that issue. The Supreme Court has also held it is lawful not to bring her back to the UK to conduct appeals from here. That is the law.

Also even if she were only British the british do NOT bring people back at tax payer expense where the foreign state chooses to release them for crime committed abroad unless it a very rare extradition case. If I were locked up in Brazil for drug smuggling the UK state would not lift a finger to help me.

Really? cause the British government have never gone to Thailand, Singapore and the like to bring back ‘naive’ drug smugglers and the like.

It is absolutely nothing to do with her ethnicity and everything to do with her vile, depraved mindset. She isn't sorry, has expressed no real remorse until instructed by her legal team to start repeating scripted statements and wearing Western style clothes again so we all start to think of her as a good girl who had her head turned. We know that she was an IS morality police enforcer because people in Syria have confirmed and corroborated it. She is by all accounts a bright girl and she knew EXACTLY what the IS outfit was all about. I used to have a BBC journalist of Asian origin as a neighbour whilst IS was at its height. She was in contact with many of these girls (not Shamima but similar) and they were all saying that they were looking forward to being at the top of the tree, having slaves, power etc. It was really quite shocking to hear the reports of the email conversations. None of them had a shred of compassion for any of the Syrian people or anyone being murdered or mutilated. Shamima and others like her are far darker than innocent 15 year olds who were groomed as her legal team likes to profess. There is/was a moral void and an utter ruthlessness in them. It takes a certain type of person to be attracted to violent ideologies whether Far Right or Islamist or any other. As for the IS fighters let back in here, it should NEVER have happened. They should have been subject to the legal system workings in the juridiction that they committed their crimes. There are plenty of Brits languishing in foreign jails and some with death sentences hanging over their heads for drugs crimes etc so I don't see why Begum is different. The Yazidi should be given justice by having them tried over there. That is what they have asked for and it is what they should be given. Only there will there be any justice for them and I believe that everyone who came from Britain to join IS regardless of their background should face that.

I agree and I’ve often wondered if it would be possible to try her in an international war crimes tribunal.

For the last time:

You cannot make someone stateless. She does not, has never and is not entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship and Bangladesh have said as much.

All those saying no racism here: Tell me something. I was born here. Am I fully British, entitled to expect due judicial process under British law, or is my citizenship not worth the paper it's written on? Because my parents are from another country?

Every person whose parents are not UK born now has reason to fear that they can be made citizenless and have no right to due process.

And frankly if you think racist newspapers should be powerful enough to effectively prevent the judicial process then there's not much else to say.

I believe our judicial court system is the among the best in the world. But this really undermines it.

Her actions clearly demonstrate that she never gave a fig about the legal protections offered by western democracies. It was her extreme interpretation of sharia law which mattered to her. Therefore, she could ask to be tried in a shariah court. The problem for her is that it would probably result in a worse outcome, possibly death because it would be based on textual interpretation, not filtered through an extremist lens of wahabism/salafism.

You can't run with hare and hunt with the hounds using dual nationality to evade justice which is what many do. I would feel exactly the same if it was someone with white origins with dual Australian/Brit nationality.

Still entirely irrelevant.

You try to make a point that because people say they would do something for their own kids, they don’t care about SB because of her race.

So back to my original point. It doesn’t make sense.

It doesn’t even make sense in reference to Ops own question. You could be someone who wills kill your child’s abuser. Doesn’t mean you can or should go to refugee camp for your child who has supported and participated in murdering people. Where does race come into that?

Why are people who care more about SB's victims than her being accused of racism? Caring about the people who had their families massacred and their daughters raped rather than a cosseted psychopath who found videos of people being beheaded and burnt alive inspirational?

Whatever Bangladesh says their government website says you can apply for a Bangladesh passport if one of your parents is a Bangladesh citizen.

bhclondon.org.uk/mrp-for-bangladeshi-origin

It's quite understandable that Bangladesh don't want SB but the fact remains that it was lawful for the UK to revoke her citizenship on the basis that to claim statelessness she must have made every effort to obtain citizenship wherever she was eligible. Had she actually applied for Bangladeshi citizenship and been denied then the UK might have had a harder time justifying revoking her citizenship.

Of course she didn't apply because she didn't want to live in Bangladesh. People will argue that she'd never even visited Bangladesh and didn't speak the language so it's understandable she wouldn't want citizenship there but she'd never visited Syria either and that didn't deter her from going.

I was responding to the claim that it wouldn't have happened if she was white and yet there are examples of white British citizens being deprived of citizenship because, just like SB, they are terrorists. It has nothing to do with the colour of her skin and everything to do with her actions.

But you're happy to believe she's committed actual acts of terror without evidence which is information from people with an agenda?

Where did I say that, Brefugee? What I said was that she's supported atrocities, and that this and her self-proclaimed views pose an obvious potential risk for everyone else should she be allowed to return

The actual details of what she has or hasn't done in Syria are unlikely ever to be fully known - something which would certainly be used in her defence along with all the usual flannel about how "traumatised" she is - and that's if she ever actually stood trial and didn't escape this because of her "mental health issues"

In a case like this, for me it really does come down to the security of the many counting for more than the rights of one offender - the pity being that so many appear not to care about this