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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

258 replies

Henuinequest · 21/11/2022 17:14

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

OP posts:
howmanybicycles · 22/11/2022 00:15

Cw112 · 22/11/2022 00:04

Because not everyone who doesn't identify as cis identifies as transgender... some people identify as a-gender/gender fluid/non-binary etc some people will also use they/them because they feel they are still on a journey of figuring out exactly where they sit with themselves and havent quite found the right wording yet and that's OK too.

You do know that most people don't identify as anything, right? Please don't assume people are cis.

The others I thought all fell under the trans umbrella but I just got that from stonewall. My understanding of what they said was that anyone whose gender does not match their birth sex is trans. So all these people you mention here. Hence my surprise!

TheKeatingFive · 22/11/2022 00:20

I couldn't be bothered to talk to any one who wants me to juggle language to appease their sense of self importance .

Basically this

I don't identify as cis either. I have no 'gender identity' in any meaningful way

Cw112 · 22/11/2022 00:24

howmanybicycles · 22/11/2022 00:15

You do know that most people don't identify as anything, right? Please don't assume people are cis.

The others I thought all fell under the trans umbrella but I just got that from stonewall. My understanding of what they said was that anyone whose gender does not match their birth sex is trans. So all these people you mention here. Hence my surprise!

I didn't assume that everyone is cis, I merely used that as an example. Trans is commonly used as an umbrella term, you're right, but not everyone who identifies for example as non-binary will identify as transgender. That's why I personally feel it's usually safest to go along with requested preferred pronouns and not make assumptions until you know the person better and they give you more info about themselves.

howmanybicycles · 22/11/2022 00:29

Womens dv hostels are female only protected spaces and rightly so

I don't think so. Trans identifying males are now allowed in. So they're mixed sex spaces. Clearly there should be spaces for trans people. But that doesnt justify making spaces mixed.

As a female, such moved disenfranchise me. Its a whole other issue butbi am struggling with menopause. I looked for a support group but they are for 'anyone who identifies as a woman". Well I don't and neither do I want to go to a support group and discuss an experience which a male can never have with them. When I hear people lay claim to female pronouns, I am reminded thatbthere are no such spaces for me anymore. Its actually pretty traumatising.

Anyway, back to my wish that we have proper gender neutral pronouns. They could be used both by progressive feminists and people who align themselveswith old fashioned stereotypes and we'd have a point of commonality!

howmanybicycles · 22/11/2022 00:35

Cw112 · 22/11/2022 00:24

I didn't assume that everyone is cis, I merely used that as an example. Trans is commonly used as an umbrella term, you're right, but not everyone who identifies for example as non-binary will identify as transgender. That's why I personally feel it's usually safest to go along with requested preferred pronouns and not make assumptions until you know the person better and they give you more info about themselves.

I'm a bit baffled as to what assumptions you'd think I was making? I think this just points to the need for a proper clear system of definitions. If you think stonewall have got it wrong in saying that everyone except that small percentage of cis people are trans then fair enough but they are the ones setting themselves up as the experts. Any system which says the vast majority of the population are trans seems a bit off to me.

Personally I do think it's a bit bonkers as it means my male and male looking oh and myself who looks and is female are both trans and therefore considered more vulnerable than cis people. In the olden days, as it were, we looked like a middle aged heterosexual couple. I.e. some of the leadt vulnerable. It's confusing

Lancrelady80 · 22/11/2022 01:58

outdated grammatical reasons,

it's not grammar, it's definition. "Their" = plural. "Susan went to fetch their coat" is as wrong as "the cat barked." People who insist on appropriating specific pronouns for themselves are mangling our language and confusing a hell of a lot of people by forcing a change in meaning.

We have to teach pronouns at KS1, so age 5 and upwards.How do we teach our children pronouns for a world where a vocal minority no longer use them in the way they are intended, and insist on the rest of us following?

So would people like us to continue to knowingly teach "wrong" and "outdated" pronouns, throw in trans education at age 5 to explain why it's not the case some of the time, or simply ditch almost all pronouns altogether and use they/their in all contexts? (We don't have a choice, the curriculum states we have to teach to this "outdated" grammar.)

mackthepony · 22/11/2022 02:00

Just call him Jim or Bob or whatever

Lancrelady80 · 22/11/2022 02:06

Yes, still polite and respectful but doesn't insist on screwing up language and grammar.

ofwarren · 22/11/2022 02:24

Spiderboy · 21/11/2022 23:50

Is your last paragraph for real?

Why would it not be for real?
I'm autistic and struggle immensely with this.

knittingaddict · 22/11/2022 03:03

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:42

As someone who worked with dv for many years this is a nonsense. Tw tm and in general members of the lgbtqa+ community are less likely to report domestic violence for a wide range of reasons including but not limited to: heternormative language used in awareness campaigns and by providers, inadequate responses in policing etc, lack of neighbours willing to intervene and report on a victims behalf, lack of available safe houses for tw or tm, fear of further stigma and stereotypes, lack of support networks from prior family breakdown upon 'coming out' and therefore feeling more dependent on the abusive partner etc etc etc. So I'll call bs on this from a professional standpoint any day of the week. It's extremely difficult for any woman accessing support for dv, it's even harder when that woman has another barrier such as gender/sexuality/language/race/disability to contend with and this is reflected in what workers see on the ground and why its essential staff working in dv are trained in inclusive practice which the vast majority of women's dv charities will promote because they recognise these gaps in service.

If you work in this field then I'm sure you are also aware that many, many women also don't report DA?

Badgirlriri · 22/11/2022 03:08

the world’s gone mad.

BeanieTeen · 22/11/2022 07:35

it's not grammar, it's definition. "Their" = plural. "Susan went to fetch their coat" is as wrong as "the cat barked."

Well a few years ago people didn’t tweet either - times change. Language evolves - it’s very naive and foolish to think language is set in stone and can’t or shouldn’t change. Especially definitions. That’s the most basic part of language evolving. Grammar is actually harder to change. But also not set in stone.

Henuinequest · 22/11/2022 07:52

‘All panellist were trans identifying

Doesn't sound like a very diverse panel.’

it was specific to trans Remembrance Day. There was one a while back just with no people for bi visibility.

OP posts:
Henuinequest · 22/11/2022 07:53

‘Just call him Jim or Bob or whatever’

inahve done this with some they/ thems as I trip over that one a lot but in this instance I was hoping someone who was he/ they could just be called ‘he’.

OP posts:
cimena · 22/11/2022 07:53

the speed this thread went echo chamber is quite scary

TheKeatingFive · 22/11/2022 08:00

the speed this thread went echo chamber is quite scary

challenge it then

ClaryFairchild · 22/11/2022 08:15

I can barely remember peoples' names, how the fuck am I supposed to remember pronouns as well??!! Everyone can be they/them now as far as I'm concerned.

AlisonDonut · 22/11/2022 08:22

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:52

Trans people are massively more likely to die due to suicide so trans day of remembrance is to encompass that moreso than murder specifically.

Nope. Not true.

They say that because they are told to say it to strong arm medics into referring them for treatment. The study that 'proved' this stat was debunked years ago.

Suicide stats should never be used to manipulate people. The Samaritans are quite clear on that. Shame on you.

BloodyHellKen · 22/11/2022 08:56

BeanieTeen · 22/11/2022 07:35

it's not grammar, it's definition. "Their" = plural. "Susan went to fetch their coat" is as wrong as "the cat barked."

Well a few years ago people didn’t tweet either - times change. Language evolves - it’s very naive and foolish to think language is set in stone and can’t or shouldn’t change. Especially definitions. That’s the most basic part of language evolving. Grammar is actually harder to change. But also not set in stone.

Tweeting has not changed the language and only a tiny percentage of people use Twitter so suggesting that using pronouns is the modern way is just not played out in reality.

Obviously language isn't set in stone new words or meanings of words change all the time however in order to do that they have to be common parlance. Using mangled pronouns is not common parlance. The number of people who are pronouners must be miniscule compared to the population of the UK as a whole - unless you are in an echo chamber. I work in an arty field and I've come across 2 people who use pronouns in their email footers. 2 people in the 12 years I've done this job. One of my daughters friends decided she was a non-binary they/them but gave up after a bit as it was such a massive hassle because most people don't get it and so don't do it.

People have more important things to think about than pronouns.

As I and many others have already commented just use peoples names instead. that way every pronoun is catered for, no one can claim offense and it's already part of the language.

BloodyHellKen · 22/11/2022 09:05

Henuinequest · 22/11/2022 07:53

‘Just call him Jim or Bob or whatever’

inahve done this with some they/ thems as I trip over that one a lot but in this instance I was hoping someone who was he/ they could just be called ‘he’.

Why, why were you hoping they could just be called 'he'? OP I don't understand why you are naval gazing about this non-issue.

Just call people by their name.

BTW just because it's TR Day doesn't mean the panel should be all trans because that is not diverse is it?

Out of interest where do you work OP because it sounds really like a really hard-work environment 😂

potniatheron · 22/11/2022 09:38

Spiderboy · 21/11/2022 23:50

Is your last paragraph for real?

If you mean, do I mean what I say in my last paragraph, then yes, of course.

potniatheron · 22/11/2022 09:42

ofwarren · 22/11/2022 02:24

Why would it not be for real?
I'm autistic and struggle immensely with this.

I come from an immigrant family whose first language is gendered and inflected. the members of my family whose English is not great, struggle already with English pronouns and with using them correctly. They would struggle even more if they were asked to use them incorrectly.

I also have a relative who suffered a traumatic brain injury 15 years ago that left them with partial aphasia and they struggle with particles, pronouns and tenses. They would find it very difficult to communicate if asked to remember incorrect or changing pronouns, or ones that do not make syntactical sense.

This is why I am confident that inability to use preffered pronouns will never become punishable in law, because it would be clearly against the various laws preventing discrimination against non native speakers and the disabled.

ChateauMargaux · 22/11/2022 09:43

@BeanieTeen You said: 'Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit they don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence.'

People get grammatical structures wrong all the time - in fact there are several structures that are frequently applied incorrectly. It is OK to ask how they should be used.

In this case - for most of the last 100 years, the literary and common usage of the male and female pronouns - he / she / they for subject pronouns and him / her / them for object pronouns and his / her's / their's for possessive pronouns applied to singular male / singular female and plural subjects, where male / female referred to the distinction between the sex classes, between those which are is on the developmental pathway to being capable of producing small gamets (males) and that which is on the developmental pathway to producing large gamets (females).

Recently - and it is very recently, there is a movement towards using the words male and female, the words man and woman and their associated pronouns to mean identifying with a set of gender based stereotypes, or a set of internally defined feelings that a person associates with one or other of the words previously used to define the sex classes, male / female and their associated nouns man / woman and to introduce a third concept of non binary humans that identify as neither.

We have become accustomed to seeing he/him, she/her and they/them as shorthand to help us identify people who wish to have these specific pronouns used when referring to them, especially where the previously held conventions do not apply, or in solidarity to those who feel that the conventionally applied pronouns do not apply to them.

The use of he/they and she/they, deviates from this new convention as it proposes two alternatives for the subject pronouns rather than proposing subject and object pronouns but does not define the circumstances under which one should apply he rather than they and likewise she rather than they.

Much of how we use language comes from observing the behaviour of others and from reading, watching and listening to narratives and this use of language becomes reflexive if not entirely instinctive, so we have learned to use he / she / them in the situations where we have seen, heard or read their use the past. To over ride these reflexes / instincts (I use that word cautiously as it see it more reflexive than instinctive) we need to consciously relearn how to apply the rules in new situations and on an individual basis, similar to the way we learn the names of new people when we meet them, however, now we need to learn additional pieces of information for some people and apply our reflexive learned responses to others.

This is similar to how adults learn second and subsequent languages compared to how children acquire language. Typical adult language learning uses a translation of our existing words to the new language whereas typical childhood language acquisition assigns a word in the language to the object, subject, concept that is being learnt.

You might be embarrassed to ask.. but it is better to ask than to continue in confusion.

Henuinequest · 22/11/2022 09:57

For those asking, I do use names but it’s really awkward and odd to carry an entire convo using someone’s name the whole time.I have a manager that I do this with but a convo using someone’s name can get really fucking stupid very quickly.

‘Mary wondered if we should go with the blue because she thinks that the client will like it. In her experience they like those cooler shades better, so I’ll go back to her now and let her know we were all thinking green might be a good compromise.’

’Mary wondered if we should go with the blue, Mary thinks the client will like it because in Mary’s experience the client likes those cooler shades better. I’ll go back to Mary now and let Mary know we were all thinking green might be a good compromise.’

OP posts:
Henuinequest · 22/11/2022 09:59

Anyway - I think the question has been answers for me. Those using He/they or she/they are happy to be addressed by either so I’ll do what I do with non-binary identifying people - use he for men, she for women and they sometimes as I would for someone who hasn’t got pronouns announced.

OP posts: