To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

[Henuinequest]

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

It’s not hatred to want to uphold womens rights, and if anyone thinks it is they need to have a long hard look at what they’re doing.

On the subject of pronouns - pandering to a group who cannot accept they are not their chosen sex is like helping an anorexic teen to lose weight. They need support, not this whole departure from reality that leads vulnerable people into a lifetime of disappointment.

More likely than women? You know, the two or three people of the female sex who are murdered each week in England and Wales by their husband, partner or former partners?
Amd that number is probably an underestimate. Source : J Phillips

‘There are more trans murderers from over the last ten years than there are TW murdered.‘’

that is just bullcrap

I never said they were more likely than females to be at risk - I provided evidence that showed that trans people were more likely than the average person to be at risk of violence. The majority of violence against women is also probably underreported, which skews the figures there too. We don’t need a race to the bottom.

But your post says you want to ask how it works. Why ask us on MN? We’re not here to explain pronouns.

You decided you don’t want to hear it from the person you are actually wondering about because you’re a lesbian and perceive him to be straight. Don’t let your sexuality be a barrier to understanding more about what you are curious about.

It’s absolutely true.

The link shared earlier has sources, feel free to have a look.

Re these stats. I wonder if TW are more likely to report domestic violence? In many families, including my own, it's just been a fact of life. When you're brought up as the less valuable other then you can come not to notice how you're being treated badly. Indeed the TWAW movement depends on women accepting their status as givers and not demanders or takers which shows just how entrenched that way of looking at things is.

Some, but not all of course, TW delight in having, or believing themselves to have, experiences which women have. They convince themselves that despite being male bodied they have periods, they WANT to be able to have an abortion, they want to be sexually harassed. It's not a stretch to think that they are much more likely to report domestic abuse than women.

In terms of pronouns, I believe we need actually sex-neutral pronouns. It is ridiculous to expect people to remember each person's individuals requirements. Many people can't remember people's names and yet there is no examining of this requirement. They does not work because it destroys all rules of grammar and renders text incomprehensible.

Absolutely!

So who is the ‘average person’ then?

You mean men?

No - I mean that, for example, for every 10,000 people in the U.K. who aren’t trans, 1,000 of them are victims of violent crime, compared to every 10,000 people in the U.K. who are trans, 1,001 of them are victims of violent crime. Obviously with the actual data. I’m not comparing trans people v women, I’m comparing trans people v non trans people.

Do you know if that 'violence' includes hate crimes? Because I think the reporting of those is problematic given that hate crimes against women will not be accepted as an issue (e.g. people calling me cis or assuming I identify as a woman) but every time a woman doesn't roll over, this can be a hate crime to a trans person even when a reasonable person would not see it as such (I do accept the possibility of actual hate crimes towards trans people BTW).

Researchers at the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles, School of Law
found that trans people are over four times more likely than cis people to experience violent crime, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault. They also found that trans people have higher rates of property victimization than cis people.

For the study, researchers looked at data from the 2017 and 2018 National Crime Victimization Survey, the first national and comprehensive survey to include respondents' gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

Trans people age 16 and up experience 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people, compared to just 21.7 per 1,000 for cis people, according to the study. Transgender women experience violent crime at the rate of 86.1 per 1,000 people, and trans men experience it at a rate of 107.5 per 1,000. That means that over one in 10 trans men are the victims of a violent crime at some point in their life. Those numbers drop to 23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people for cis women and cis men, respectively.

No, as far as I can see from this particularly study, there’s no mention of hate crime specifically. It seems more focused on physical and sexual assault. I acknowledge that this is for the US, not the U.K., but we are similar societies and the data for the U.K. is much harder to find.

Do also remember that if someone is a she/her or a he/him then they/them-ing the person can also be misgendering.

Do they actually mean cis? What about agender people? I'm confused re what they're actually reporting. This must be excluding violence in the home is that right? Given how many women experience domestic violence? I guess it's hard to make sense of without seeing the whole study report. I wonder how this compares in the UK. Things are obviously very different in the US which is a hugely aggressive country. Interesting though.

Not sure whether they’d include agender under the trans umbrella or if there is separate data for them. I have read the original study as I used it for my degree but I can’t for the life of me find it anywhere! Also agree re domestic violence figures - I suppose it depends how they recorded their data? If it was like a census then you’d be unlikely to include domestic violence if the perpetrator had access to that information? I’m not sure. I’m also nowhere near knowledgeable about this to debate it, but I see a lot on here suggesting that trans people live in some sort of utopia where they go around abusing women and dreaming of stripping away their rights, and are never victims in their own right. This was just to show that they are often victims of violence - whilst that may be nothing close to what biological females experience, it’s clear they are at risk of violence too.

I am LGBT too

So you are a Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transvestite?

Make your mind up!

😂

Yes, to make sense of the study you would need to know how they were using the terms - who are they comparing with who and is it self declared. Also it would be instructive to know the stats broken down by sex so you could really understand what is going on.

Lots of people identify as LGBT. It’s an umbrella term. Being BAME doesn’t make you every other ethnicity bar white. Don’t be an ignorant prick. Makes you look stupid and bigoted.

the reason these kinds of panels etc ‘announce it’ is so everyone is the same. So a ciswoman who presents very femininely announces the same as a very androgynous looking gender fluid person.
Its about making it an inclusive thing to do.

👏👏 well said.

Trans people have existed forever, you ignorant fuckwit.

@electricdreaming

yeah whatever.

The T doesn't stand for Transvestite, if you're going to be a bigot at least get your terms right.

Careful now, the GC mask is slipping and your homophobia is showing

Do also remember that if someone is a she/her or a he/him then they/them-ing the person can also be misgendering.

in the name of the wee man!