To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

[Henuinequest]

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

I agree @Henuinequest but it's no more or less awkward that referring to a man as 'she' or a woman as 'he' or either of them as a singular 'they'.

Also by using names there is the added bonus that no one can complain about being misgendered so as far as I can see it's a win win situation 😀

@knittingaddict yes... which I addressed and acknowledged in the post you quoted. Doesn't mean that some people dont face additional barriers than others however? This is why feminism must be intersectional if its to benefit all women imo.

@AlisonDonut it's certainly what I see on the ground as a community worker on the daily. "They say that because they are told to say it to strong arm medics into referring them for treatment" who is telling people to say that? Where are you getting that info from? Because in all the time I've worked with trans people I've never seen them be told to lie to medical professionals- infact exactly the opposite. I have seen them actively attempt to end their lives though and be recommended to attend counselling which is the correct advice. Recognising that isn't manipulating anything or anyone its just recognising what I at least witness on the ground as do many of my colleagues in similar roles which is why we get extensive training in this area.

@howmanybicycles "I'm a bit baffled as to what assumptions you'd think I was making?" I just meant the assumption that anyone who you are describing that would fall under the umbrella term of trans is happy to be referred to as trans because this isn't always the case. Usually due to the stigmas attached to being trans and the associations that individual might attach to it. That wasn't directly aimed at you, moreso the general language used at points during this thread, my apologies if that wasn't clear. In terms of your point re: dv shelters do you mean transmales who were originally natal women are allowed in? Or are you meaning transwomen? Where I am in the UK I know for fact all women's hostels are 100% female only dv specialising or homeless specialising. Tw are turned out of day centers with all the men and expected to go to men's shelters so the majority sleep rough as they feel that would be safer for them. It leaves tm with the difficulty of knowing where to go, either a women's shelter which may be safer for them but this causes issues in itself around gender dysphoria and how comfortable the women there feel depending on how 'male' someone looks visually. Therefore adding another barrier to tm accessing anything.

I think if you use 'they' for people who don't have pronouns announced which is 99.9% of people you will sound like a (really hard to understand) lunatic 😂

Most people don't care about pronouns OP!!!

I mean TW get into female shelters just as they get into female prisons, sports and other places. This may not happen in all but that is the direction of travel which men's rights activists are aggressively (literally) campaigning for. If you think the trans umbrella is too wide I think you need to take it up with Stonewall, not me!

This is why feminism must be intersectional if its to benefit all women imo.

I'm confused by this - TW are not women. Feminism, whether intersectional or not, can't include them. They're males and always will be. If they are 'women' then most people we formerly called women aren't because there are no points of similarity.

This is why feminism must be intersectional if its to benefit all women imo.

Okay just answer me this. How does intersectional feminism benefit vulnerable women who need single sex spaces for their safety and dignity?

Abuse/rape victims for example looking for refuges and therapy? Disabled/ill women who want female only personal care? Women prisoners?

This is why feminism must be intersectional if its to benefit all women imo.

Why stop at feminism? How about intersectional healthcare for people who identify as (furry) animals? It's a lot easier to get an appointment at the vets than the GPs and they are always very keen to refer you too a specialist as well.

Intersectional education for all those people who identify as school children anyone?

And why are trans rights never required to be intersectional? 🤔

This is why I no longer leave the house unless I absolutely have to

Intersectional feminism goes wider than just including trans people it recognises that women may have different needs from those single sex spaces according to race/religion/disability etc as you say and which I stated earlier. And I do believe it can be done in a way that doesn't compromise womens only spaces such as having spaces that are more flexible and allow for everyone to exist without encroaching on each others needs. I recognise that some may feel differently and some may feel why should they bother to campaign for that. But I personally think it offers more benefit in the long run to have more varied spaces with protected components within those spaces. Eg having male/female/neutral bathrooms. I know some trans activists may disagree with that too but for me it's a reasonable middle ground and probably the best way to meet the majority of need.

FFS. So glad I don't work with any of these attention seekers.

And I do believe it can be done in a way that doesn't compromise womens only spaces such as having spaces that are more flexible and allow for everyone to exist without encroaching on each others needs

But how does that work if men are asking to be recognised legally as women? If you think TWAW how do you keep them from women only spaces?

Does anyone in real life actually spend time worrying about which pronouns to use when the person in question isn’t even around?! I will treat every person I meet - regardless of sex or gender presentation - with respect unless I have good reason to do otherwise, but I draw the line at these emotionally draining mental gymnastics required by certain elements within this movement. And I’m certainly not teaching my kids to feel compelled to call a man “she” when he’s not even there, just because he wishes he was a member of the opposite sex.

And if a Transperson starts saying you are denying their dignity and safety by not allowing them access to women only prisons or refuges, what do you say to them then? How does that conversation go?

Can you explain this a bit more I'm not sure I fully understand the question you're asking? If I'm picking you up right then I would say that's asking a minority group to make allowances for a much larger group. Similar to asking someone who's persecuted due to race to make allowances so white women can benefit too? As far as I'm concerned as a straight white female the only social group who really need to make room for me are men and that is again somewhat nuanced depending on the individual man (eg i wouldn't necessarily expect the same from a transmale as I would from another man.) I don't expect other women who are perhaps more marginalised than I am to make space for me- it's my responsibility to make more space for them so we can all benefit in the long run. I think the difficulty lies in that there's two marginalised groups that directly butt heads and I don't think the open and respectful dialogue is quite there yet to be able to reach a happy middle ground and allyship.

You need to think about how decisions are made about the boundaries or these spaces. You also need to know that you have just outed yourself as transphobic and a TERF. Third spaces do not validate and you've just taken TWANW stance.

If I'm picking you up right then I would say that's asking a minority group to make allowances for a much larger group

No it's asking what happens when two different 'minority' groups have needs/desires in opposition. Where is the TW concern for vulnerable abused women who need male free spaces for their safety and dignity?

Does anyone in real life actually spend time worrying about which pronouns to use when the person in question isn’t even around?!

In my experience no of course they don't they use the most obvious, easiest ones.

Please don't use 'they' for people who don't put their preferred pronouns.. follow the long established conventions of using the sex based pronouns unless otherwise indicated.

I do not wish to declare my pronouns as it puts me, as a female, at a disadvantage. I also do not identify with the gender stereotypes associated with non sex based stereotypes and therefore by declaring my pronouns in this way, I feel that I would be declaring that I do. I do not want to be referred to as 'they' but I do want you to follow the long established conventions. The default should be sex based pronouns, not gender based ones.

How would I distinguish which ones to use - the same as you always have done.

This. You will cause massive offence if you assume people align themselves with 50 year old culturally specific white-centric stereotypes.

You also need to know that you have just outed yourself as transphobic and a TERF.

Quite. Most of us go TERF at some point, it's about whether we acknowledge that fact or not.

One thing I don't understand is when we started pretending that pronouns refer to gender not sex? That's manifestly not the case, they're used from birth.

This is an important question. Trans rights are currently very dismissive of disabled people, neaurodiverse people, and non-English speakers. To the extent of being outright racist or ableist.

it would be nice is the trans rights movement could be less Anglocentric and Anlgosupremacist. The momvement really needs to confront this and do better if they are to be truly intersectional.

I'm a proud trans exclusionary radical feminist. I believe in science and biology and not gender woo woo. Hope that helps.

I'm a proud trans exclusionary radical feminist. I believe in science and biology and not gender woo woo. Hope that helps.

Then I think I must be one too - where do I sign up? 😂

Count me in as well. TERF and proud of it😚