Page 4 | To ask HOW he/they or she/they works?

BloodyHellKen · 21/11/2022 21:05

Henuinequest · 21/11/2022 17:14

On a DE&I video call at work and the session panel did intros with pronouns stated - 2 of them said ‘I’m he/them’ and one said ‘she/they’. All panellist were trans identifying.

asking a practical question - if someone is he/ them, I’m fine just to to refer to him as he or him? As in ‘ let’s wait 2 mins to see if Josh is coming. He said he could make it’ or I’m I supposed to be saying them ??
the panel was all about trans day of remembrance or something like that so it didn’t feel appropriately to start asking them…

To ask HOW he/they or she/they works

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

Just use their names instead.

Cherryblossoms85 · 21/11/2022 21:11

Whatever.

Isitsixoclockalready · 21/11/2022 21:20

Personally, I'd always try my best to interact with someone who is trans in a way that makes them comfortable; however in an already stressful and anxiety inducing modern society, I am not going to drive myself crazy running a gauntlet of alternating pronouns.

Oujiawoowoo · 21/11/2022 21:22

Absolutely disgusted that MN are deleting posts from people who are simply stating a fact. I expressed astonishment that there is such a thing as “trans Remembrance Day” and it gets deleted? Why?
There are two sexes. Male and female. That is a biological fact. Will this be deleted too I wonder? If so, why?

Why is “trans” suddenly a sacred rite that isn’t allowed to be questioned?

Mumsnet - you should be ashamed of yourselves.

BeanieTeen · 21/11/2022 21:22

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

I think unless English is not your first language there isn’t much to be confused about though. Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit their don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence. It’s not hard…

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 21:23

electricdreaming · 21/11/2022 20:22

Not sure whether they’d include agender under the trans umbrella or if there is separate data for them. I have read the original study as I used it for my degree but I can’t for the life of me find it anywhere! Also agree re domestic violence figures - I suppose it depends how they recorded their data? If it was like a census then you’d be unlikely to include domestic violence if the perpetrator had access to that information? I’m not sure. I’m also nowhere near knowledgeable about this to debate it, but I see a lot on here suggesting that trans people live in some sort of utopia where they go around abusing women and dreaming of stripping away their rights, and are never victims in their own right. This was just to show that they are often victims of violence - whilst that may be nothing close to what biological females experience, it’s clear they are at risk of violence too.

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Can I be clear re: cis people? It's a very small percentage of the population who define themselves as cis so this, if we take it at face value, suggests that they are comparing a small percentage of the population with another small percentage and have not looked at the bulk of the population. Or have they instead just misgendered a load of people? Sadly I expect the latter.

I've not heard talk about a Utopia. I have heard a reservation about using stats from Brazilian sex workers to justify trans people being highly at risk in the UK and anger at the dismissal and normalising of violence/ rape/ murder to women.

I personally would find it impossible to believe that some trans people are not at increased risk of violence. Some trans people wear clothes which traditionally were for the opposite sex and most trans identifying males are very clearly male bodied. Some people, largely men, don't tolerate that kind of 'gender bending' and assault people for such 'crimes'. But saying they are the most vulnerable is something which needs robust and area specific data to justify as otherwise it detracts from other's vulnerabilities including, I believe, women.

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 21:25

BeanieTeen · 21/11/2022 21:22

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

I think unless English is not your first language there isn’t much to be confused about though. Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit their don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence. It’s not hard…

It works like the stroop effect so it slows down understanding. But also, I have got genuinely confused when being unable to understand whether the 'they' is one person in the story or both of them. English is confusing enough without adding in extra confusion. My first, and indeed only, language is English so it's not a second language thing. Pretending this does not cause some confusion is helping no-one.

Oujiawoowoo · 21/11/2022 21:26

BeanieTeen · 21/11/2022 21:22

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

I think unless English is not your first language there isn’t much to be confused about though. Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit their don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence. It’s not hard…

Because it is expecting a very high level of cognitive dissonance in humans that have evolved over eons to recognise that there are two sexes. So if I am confronted with a man who wants to be known as “she/her” it is going to make for a very difficult interaction/conversation with that person going forward. You are asking people to expend their belief system and everything they know.

Or are you being wilfully obtuse pretending you don’t understand how it could be troublesome?

ofwarren · 21/11/2022 21:32

BeanieTeen · 21/11/2022 21:22

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

I think unless English is not your first language there isn’t much to be confused about though. Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit their don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence. It’s not hard…

English is my first language and trust me, as an autistic woman I dread having to deal with this issue.
I misgender by accident already, to people who use sex based pronouns. I get mixed up with he and she when talking. I know what they are but my mouth doesn't say the words. My brain seems to default to he.

Wrinklydinkly · 21/11/2022 21:32

I couldn't be bothered to talk to any one who wants me to juggle language to appease their sense of self importance .

SpudleyLass · 21/11/2022 21:39

From me, they will have the pronouns according to their sex.

tilder · 21/11/2022 21:46

All panellist were trans identifying

Doesn't sound like a very diverse panel.

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 21:57

tilder · 21/11/2022 21:46

All panellist were trans identifying

Doesn't sound like a very diverse panel.

Gosh yes, hadn't noticed that! Where are the biological women on this panel? A highly oppressed group who should be on EDI panels! I do hope someone just was off sick at the last minute otherwise that is a shameful reflection on the organisers.

BloodyHellKen · 21/11/2022 22:00

BeanieTeen · 21/11/2022 21:22

The short answer is that is doesn't OP because it's a un natural way of speaking and life really is too short.

I think unless English is not your first language there isn’t much to be confused about though. Aren’t people a bit embarrassed to get so confused over how their first and often only language works? It always surprises me how quick people are to admit their don’t understand how to substitute ‘they’ for ‘she’ in a sentence. It’s not hard…

@BeanieTeen I didn't say it was confusing, I said it wasn't a natural way to speak because it isn't. Using someone's name is simpler and there is no risk of causing offence. Obviously the pronoun person doesn't get to feel as special but I can live with that.

AlisonDonut · 21/11/2022 22:05

Loving that there are percentages involved in the she/they ratio these days, at least we can all keep track on our phones. There must be an app for that by now, right?

tricervixtops · 21/11/2022 22:07

Petition: Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?msgid=-4668426#-4668426

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:42

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 18:53

Re these stats. I wonder if TW are more likely to report domestic violence? In many families, including my own, it's just been a fact of life. When you're brought up as the less valuable other then you can come not to notice how you're being treated badly. Indeed the TWAW movement depends on women accepting their status as givers and not demanders or takers which shows just how entrenched that way of looking at things is.

Some, but not all of course, TW delight in having, or believing themselves to have, experiences which women have. They convince themselves that despite being male bodied they have periods, they WANT to be able to have an abortion, they want to be sexually harassed. It's not a stretch to think that they are much more likely to report domestic abuse than women.

In terms of pronouns, I believe we need actually sex-neutral pronouns. It is ridiculous to expect people to remember each person's individuals requirements. Many people can't remember people's names and yet there is no examining of this requirement. They does not work because it destroys all rules of grammar and renders text incomprehensible.

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As someone who worked with dv for many years this is a nonsense. Tw tm and in general members of the lgbtqa+ community are less likely to report domestic violence for a wide range of reasons including but not limited to: heternormative language used in awareness campaigns and by providers, inadequate responses in policing etc, lack of neighbours willing to intervene and report on a victims behalf, lack of available safe houses for tw or tm, fear of further stigma and stereotypes, lack of support networks from prior family breakdown upon 'coming out' and therefore feeling more dependent on the abusive partner etc etc etc. So I'll call bs on this from a professional standpoint any day of the week. It's extremely difficult for any woman accessing support for dv, it's even harder when that woman has another barrier such as gender/sexuality/language/race/disability to contend with and this is reflected in what workers see on the ground and why its essential staff working in dv are trained in inclusive practice which the vast majority of women's dv charities will promote because they recognise these gaps in service.

VestaTilley · 21/11/2022 23:43

The whole thing is nonsense, and I don’t go along with it.

And Trans Day of Remembrance? Please. Three women a WEEK are killed in Britain at the hands of violent men. No single trans person has been killed in the U.K. since 2019.

Spiderboy · 21/11/2022 23:50

potniatheron · 21/11/2022 17:22

As I understand it, you should use the pornouns interchangeably, but make an effort to use the first preferred pronoun more than the second.

So, if a person goes by she/they, you should try to use say 60% she and 40% they.

Whereas if their preffered pronouns were they/he, you should use 60% they and 40% he.

It might be quite challenging for anyone who is neurodiverse, has a brain injury, a speech impediment, or for someone who's first language is not English.

Is your last paragraph for real?

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:50

VestaTilley · 21/11/2022 23:43

The whole thing is nonsense, and I don’t go along with it.

And Trans Day of Remembrance? Please. Three women a WEEK are killed in Britain at the hands of violent men. No single trans person has been killed in the U.K. since 2019.

The thing that gets me about this is everyone is so quick to jump on the bandwagon with these posts re: Tw vs womens rights. There are lots of reasons why people may identify as they/ them without identifying as transgender. So if you're derailing a thread purely to point out your issues with trans people then at least acknowledge what you're doing (derailing so you can incite a pile on) and that you have a serious issue with a monitory group of people because that's not what the op initially asked about at all.

Op as far as I'm aware if someone gives you he/ they or she/they as pronouns then it's fine to use either they've provided you with. I tend to use they/ them most often when working with people who give me those options. It's ok to make mistakes as long as you are genuinely trying to get it right just correct yourself and move on.

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:52

VestaTilley · 21/11/2022 23:43

The whole thing is nonsense, and I don’t go along with it.

And Trans Day of Remembrance? Please. Three women a WEEK are killed in Britain at the hands of violent men. No single trans person has been killed in the U.K. since 2019.

Trans people are massively more likely to die due to suicide so trans day of remembrance is to encompass that moreso than murder specifically.

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 23:52

Cw112 · 21/11/2022 23:42

As someone who worked with dv for many years this is a nonsense. Tw tm and in general members of the lgbtqa+ community are less likely to report domestic violence for a wide range of reasons including but not limited to: heternormative language used in awareness campaigns and by providers, inadequate responses in policing etc, lack of neighbours willing to intervene and report on a victims behalf, lack of available safe houses for tw or tm, fear of further stigma and stereotypes, lack of support networks from prior family breakdown upon 'coming out' and therefore feeling more dependent on the abusive partner etc etc etc. So I'll call bs on this from a professional standpoint any day of the week. It's extremely difficult for any woman accessing support for dv, it's even harder when that woman has another barrier such as gender/sexuality/language/race/disability to contend with and this is reflected in what workers see on the ground and why its essential staff working in dv are trained in inclusive practice which the vast majority of women's dv charities will promote because they recognise these gaps in service.

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I'm sure these barriers are true but keys not pretend there are not barriers foe others. There are now no dedicated female spaces which many women experience as a significant barriers and is a move away from equality. Moreover the stepping on women's boundaries gives a clear negative message a out women's value and how little they will be protected. Lack of police response, lack of neighbours willing to intervene - these affect women too of course? I would support trans support services and its a shame the TRA are not lobbying for more such services.

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 23:55

There are lots of reasons why people may identify as they/ them without identifying as transgender.

I'm genuinely surprised to hear this. What would those reasons be?

Cw112 · 22/11/2022 00:01

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 23:52

I'm sure these barriers are true but keys not pretend there are not barriers foe others. There are now no dedicated female spaces which many women experience as a significant barriers and is a move away from equality. Moreover the stepping on women's boundaries gives a clear negative message a out women's value and how little they will be protected. Lack of police response, lack of neighbours willing to intervene - these affect women too of course? I would support trans support services and its a shame the TRA are not lobbying for more such services.

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Of course there are which is why I said it's extremely difficult for any woman accessing dv support. Womens dv hostels are female only protected spaces and rightly so. The tw or tm equivalent doesn't exist meaning there is no safe his available to anyone identifying in this way. Lack of police response has been notably improved over the last few years with most areas now having a specialist dv team and delegates from dv specialist charities working within the police to promote good practice and more efficient support for women experiencing dv. There is no lgbt equivalent of this work happening yet within policing so yes that makes it harder. Most dv incidents are reported to police by neighbours and what is then reported to community bodies is very different so yes it's not a massive jump to conclude that neighbours are less willing to report dv in same sex or trans relationships also due to the stigmas and stereotypes joe public associate with lgbt relationships. Again I think it feels like a race to the bottom to argue these issues. The vast majority of reputable dv charities want to see dv stamped out in all forms so they'll acknowledge that there are barriers lgbtqa+ people will face that non-lgbtqa+ women won't face. Similarly to recognition that there are barriers that bame women face that white women will not.

Cw112 · 22/11/2022 00:04

howmanybicycles · 21/11/2022 23:55

There are lots of reasons why people may identify as they/ them without identifying as transgender.

I'm genuinely surprised to hear this. What would those reasons be?

Because not everyone who doesn't identify as cis identifies as transgender... some people identify as a-gender/gender fluid/non-binary etc some people will also use they/them because they feel they are still on a journey of figuring out exactly where they sit with themselves and havent quite found the right wording yet and that's OK too.