AIBU to not want a man and his son using girls changing rooms

[shatteredmama]

Took dd 7 for her swimming lesson, there are separate open plan girls and boys changing rooms (it’s in a school). Was surprised to see a man come in with his young son for him use the showers.

I felt uncomfortable with this, especially as the boy goes to the same school as dd. Also pissed off at the air of entitlement from the man. Couldn’t think of any valid reason for both males to use the girls room.

No other women in there batted an eyelid though. I’ve emailed the swim school to complain but not heard anything back.

Its left me second guessing myself and wondering if I’m making a big deal out of this, and given it was children only getting changed, not women, or the man thankfully!, does that make it ok??

Nothing to do with prudism. .

1 in 4 women
1 in 6 children
1 in 20 men

have been a victim of rape or sexual assault in the UK. You really think all them happened in sexual spaces?

Why allow a free rein for those predators that haven’t been caught/convicted?

And those figures are only the known ones.,

Isn't it interesting the mental gymnastics and hoops people will jump through to minimise a man in a woman's space and to try and infer it could have been 'all innocent'. Innocent my foot. If the male changerooms were closed he could have announced it when he entered the womens change room. If he entered by mistake, he would have said something like 'oops' and backed right out fast. It's occam's razor, and the fact that OP said how she got the vibe from him, usually the most reason explanation is the explanation. It's clear it wasn't 'innocent' or a 'mistake'.

When grown women cannot or will not advocate for their daughters how can we ever expect our girls to assert boundaries?

it’s hopeless.

What you want me to do is to be empathetic to males who identify as trans, most of whom go through precisely no medical procedures on the body part that might harm me, at the expense of women who feel uncomfortable with males in safe spaces for any reason.

No thank you.

There are a fair few examples now of predatory trans women who are either sex offenders who are putting on a dress to get access to women and girls. Where is your empathy for those women and girls that they harm? Are they mere collateral damage?

It’s selfish though isn’t it?

think of the teen and pre teen girls who then feel they can’t change because they feel awkward. We teach kids their swim suit areas are private. Yet these men felt it was okay to stand in a room where girls had to undress.

at best selfish, thoughtless and entitled.

Yep.

I’ve had an adult man walk in on me when I’ve been getting changed in the ladies at a kids school swim lesson.

I rarely swim now because our local pool has made the showers unisex and I’m fed up of trying to rinse off next to teenage boys sniggering. Once one had an erection.

Swimming has become less about exercise and more about male voyeurism it seems.

So because these men (trans women) have 'gone through a lot' mentally, they means it's aok for them to be so entitled to use womens spaces? I think womens pain and trauma, especially rape victims', outweighs the trauma of these biological men.

95-97% of trans women retain their penis and testicles. It's penis and testicles that are a threat to women. Taking hormones (and that's if they even bother to go that far even) doesn't erase the fact that they have a penis and testicles, and are displaying those penis and testicles in womens spaces.

A lesbian is a biological woman, she does not have a penis. You cannot compare a lesbian, to a biological male with a penis.

This thread (with a few exceptions who appear to be devoid of empathy for vulnerable women) has empathy for vulnerable women in womens spaces. Not empathy for male bodies. Which is how it should be.

He could have also announced from the door without peering in his son was coming in for a shower. The male one is broken.

But nope the only two important people in that changing room was him and his son. Fuck the women wanting their boundaries for whatever reason. We don’t matter as a whole right? As long as a couple of women are happy with it the rest of us just stay in our place and be quiet like the good little women we are.

I'm not saying that the op didn't get a bad vibe from this particular guy. My point is that on MN we are super quick to jump to the conclusion that he must be a creep with malicious intent. I get that a lot of that comes from people's personal negative experiences with men and that makes sense. But sometimes it is just something more simple and I think jumping to the assumption that he's actively teaching his child son to be a sexual predator is a bit more far fetched than someone in the male showers made him uncomfortable or he didn't have his glasses on or he was in a rush and didn't realise where he was and noone questioned him.

But it doesn't matter if he's a creep or not. He's made women and girls uncomfortable in a single sex space. That's the entire point.

Oh behave, if it was a genuine mistake he'd have apologised and left as soon as he realised. He didn't, there was only one reason for him being there and we all know what it was. Decent men don't go into changing rooms when young girls are changing. He took his son in with him so is modelling this behaviour and disregard for females and is no doubt raising another little perv OPs daughter has to go to school with 🙄

And you work in safeguarding?!

Did you have to have a DBS check even though the chances of you not being a criminal outweighed the chance that are?

Or raising yet another misogynist that the world really needs.

Hopefully the female role model in the child’s life will rip the man and new one and get it into his head how wrong he was.

Of course shouldn’t be our job but someone has to get it into his dense head it’s not acceptable even if the shower not working or whatever.

I know that - I'm not saying it isn't the point as that's clearly the end result and as I've said before we do need single sexed spaces. But I do feel there is a difference in someone doing that by mistake than doing it on purpose. Intent matters and I'm saying that accusing every man who may or may not have made a mistake for whatever reason must be a predator who is grooming his children is a bit much. What if someone was creeping him out watching his son in the male showers so he was trying to remove them? That's a very different intent - not maybe the right solution as opposed to getting staff and complaining- but very different.

My point is that on MN we are super quick to jump to the conclusion that he must be a creep with malicious intent.

You're missing the point; he does not need to be a creep or have malicious intent. Unquestioning acceptance of males in spaces where females may feel vulnerable normalises their presence in those spaces, we should not be conditioning young girls to think this is normal or that it is hateful or bigoted for them to want privacy away from men when they are getting undressed. It's unintentional grooming. We need to teach young girls to confidently assert their boundaries.

What if someone was creeping him out watching his son in the male showers so he was trying to remove them?

What if, what if, what if. It's all gymnastics and whataboutery. Your example makes it even worse! Because he decided it's fine to creep out women, instead. Actually, your example makes it far far worse and shows (in that example) that the entitled man thinks nothing of creeping women out and doesn't stop to think about how vulnerable women might feel, it's all about male entitlement.

It's occam's razor. If it were innocent, he would have immediately retreated.

That’s why I said generally only perverts. I agree the will also be the odd stupid person who is unable to walk through the correct door. But generally the perverts outnumber the village idiots.

I don't see it as entitlement. I see it as that person living a personal dream come true just by simply using a changing room.

Is it not possible to have empathy for everyone including women and not know what the awnser is? Because that's where I am. I have a six year old son and I'm sorry you feel that way about men.

Yes of course. Should we do that with every person we meet on the street now? Obviously we have no way of knowing for sure if someone has malicious intent or not but you also can't accuse every man of being an inherent sexual predator just because they are male or of grooming their child. We all take steps to protect ourselves etc (we shouldn't have to in the first place) but we also can't go around accusing everyone of being malicious in their intent. If we lived like that we'd never leave the house. And safeguarding needs to be based in fact if I did my job like that I'd be stuck off and families would be damaged as a result. No point in safeguarding unless you're going to get it right.

Yes in that scenario he shouldn’t have gone in. But by the time I commented the thread had moved onto a wider debate. My views on undressing/nudity pertain to unisex or mixed changing areas which some people had said they also don’t like.

And I totally agree it makes little difference if the person is stupid or a pervert. We are allowed to have boundaries regardless.

You honestly don't think a man's feelings being more important that womens safety, is entitlement?

No man has the right to live their 'personal dream' at the expense of vulnerable women. I don't care about their entitled 'dreams', I care about the reality of womens safety.

It worries me that you say you have a son that you may be teaching them to be entitled too, because you genuinely don't see why womens safety comes before mens entitled 'dreams', I hope I'm wrong.

I literally did say that wouldn't have been the correct response in my reply didn't I? So thank you for telling me what I have already said and know. My point is that is an example of classic male privilege which is not great by any means but its definitely better than actively being a sexual predator. It's still a much lower end of the scale.

Exactly this. It doesn’t matter whether he was a predator. He probably wasn’t. But women are entitled to single sex spaces not just because most sexual assaults are committed by males, but for reasons of privacy and dignity.

You we’re right to complain, OP.

If the showers in the mens are broken you go home without a shower. Simple. No way would the staff say oh go and walk in that room there full of naked women!