AIBU to not want a man and his son using girls changing rooms

[shatteredmama]

Took dd 7 for her swimming lesson, there are separate open plan girls and boys changing rooms (it’s in a school). Was surprised to see a man come in with his young son for him use the showers.

I felt uncomfortable with this, especially as the boy goes to the same school as dd. Also pissed off at the air of entitlement from the man. Couldn’t think of any valid reason for both males to use the girls room.

No other women in there batted an eyelid though. I’ve emailed the swim school to complain but not heard anything back.

Its left me second guessing myself and wondering if I’m making a big deal out of this, and given it was children only getting changed, not women, or the man thankfully!, does that make it ok??

Women's only spaces should be respected as many including myself don't feel comfortable undressing in front of unrelated males but equally I would be very very disturbed if my little girl was made to change in the men's/boys if she was accompanied by her dad.. guess it is a trivial one.

But it’s not generally only perverts, he took his son in with him, there will most likely be a reason outside of perversion that led to this.

You really think this is the kind of message that’s going to get people on side? I don’t often contribute to these threads because they predictably descend into being about trans women all the time but there’s always so much hand wringing on why some women don’t agree or aren’t gender critical - it’s nothing to do with being uninformed, wanting to be kind, wanting to impress men or any of the other reasons proffered - it’s because a) people simply don’t agree with you and b) this is how you talk to people who don’t agree with you! This is not civilised debate, it’s abuse.

Didnt it occur to you for one nanosecond that i posted it generically so I wouldn’t have to say I am a victim?

Im glad that you have recovered enough to be underdressed and feel safe around a man.

Not all of us are there. Some of us will never be there.

But hey who gives a fuck some victims are still living with it constantly eating away at us. We should just accept that a man can invade our spaces.

Good to know.

You are gaslighting, and bringing in red herrings and actual straw men like trans people. This has nothing remotely to do with trans people. It's about men being a danger to women. Full stop. Period. You really think calling people a nasty individual and accusing me of having bile (ironic considering your vicious posts), calling us 'British prudes', etc, all because we know that male bodies are a danger to women - and that's how you speak to us? By spewing such vicious hatred and by gaslighting us?

These threads are always a car crash. Yes it's not ideal that the man came in with his young son but how did you know the men's weren't closed etc? Likely completely innocent.

I mean, you began by inferring I was lying about being raped. To coin a phrase, you started it. Do you really think that was an appropriate thing to say or that anyone would respond politely to that?

Do you want to answer my question first?

You’re happy for men to use female spaces where women and girls are getting changed, just because they want to? Why?

1. I would think if the men’s changing rooms were closed there would be great big signs in several places saying “men’s changing rooms closed”
2. if the men’s changing rooms were closed wouldn’t all the men need to be changing in the women’s? If they weren’t I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume the men’s were open

I did not infer any such thing.

You however inferred that women who don't want to be naked in front of men who are a danger to women, are 'British prudes'. Do you really think that was an appropriate thing to say? To gaslight women for knowing it's about power and safety, not simply being nude? Do you think I as a rape victim would respond politely to such gaslighting?

Hello everyone, we just wanted to gently remind you that we do not allow troll hunting or personal attacks on the boards - both of which break our talk guidelines. Mumsnetters who continually do this may have their accounts suspended, something we would rather avoid. As ever if you have any concerns please report them to us, we are always happy to take a look.
MNHQ

Would it be OK if the men's was closed and all the men came into the women's changing room?

Would women all pile into the men's changing room if the women's was closed?

Why must women always compromise whenever a man is inconvenienced?

Women have a right to expect a single sex/private space to change or undress. They do not need to justify this with disclosures about previous experience of sexual violence or offer any other reason than they want privacy, dignity and safety.

I’m not sure if you mean men as in men who were born as men or trans people, but yes I am happy for trans women to use female spaces and trans men to use male ones. I also support there being a third/unisex space and enclosed cubicles for people who want privacy. If there are separate male and female facilities they should be respected, so the man in the OP should’ve been challenged, but as he has a child with him my first thought had I been in that situation would be that he made a mistake. But I include trans people in my definition of male and female. That usually comes down to how people look and how well they pass, though, (and natal butch women have been challenged in female spaces despite some people on here preferring to dismiss first hand accounts and say it doesn’t happen) so I think a better solution would be more unisex spaces with closed individual cubicles for people that want them.

Why because dads cannot be predators?

You literally said “nobody who had been raped would ever think that”, what does that mean if not an insinuation that I can’t have been raped or I wouldn’t think that? I actually think individual cubicles should be there for anyone who wants them, I don’t want a big naked free for all everywhere, but yes I do think the idea that the mere existence of a man in a non-sexual space where people are undressing is in and of itself inappropriate is rooted in prudism and the idea that bodies are inherently sexual, which I don’t agree with.

I didn’t mention transpeople.

So you do agree then, this man shouldn’t have used the women’s changing room?

Could he be intentionally teaching his son that he should be able to go into all spaces, no matter gender restrictions and how to sneak peaks of women etc.

Despicable

Nope

Because there is a more likely scenario than a random pervert just walking into the female changing rooms with his son

Its far, far more likely he was confused, the showers in the mens were broken and he was told to use the other changing room. Him being a predator is quite low down the list of likelihood

I’d say it’s rooted in the way men commit 98% of sex crimes and have spent many a year over sexualising women’s bodies.

I have never heard a woman who has been raped claim that womens safety is a straw man and not important, before now.

Bodies are all inherently sexual. We all know this. They have male parts and female parts. The human body is 100% sexual, this cannot be denied.

Apart from that, it's gaslighting to say that a woman who wants her privacy and dignity is a 'prude', that is deeply, deeply offensive and gaslighting.

Aside from that, it's about safety, not nudism.

IME it’ll be Switzerland 🙄. Went to a public swimming bath with DH and then-teen DS only to find that the whole thing was unisex and unsurprisingly most of the swimmers were men.

Jeez we've gone to a dark place now. Maybe the man was stressed or short sighted and made a mistake but no... he must be grooming his young son to be a sexual predator as well. Like don't get me wrong I know these things happen I work in safeguarding but that sounds like a serious leap. Also maybe he genuinely is short sighted. I'm partially blind and can't wear my glasses in the pool and won't waste my money on prescription goggles so i have gone into the wrong changing room as a result. If noone challenged him he might not have realised. Also surely his stuff would have been in the male locker area in the first place so I'm assuming he just went in to use the showers which is usually at the swimming side entrance? Maybe there was someone in the male showers he felt was watching his son so he removed him? There's so many different possibilities I don't see why we'd jump immediately to the dark and twisted.

But it’s not generally only perverts, he took his son in with him, there will most likely be a reason outside of perversion that led to this.

It's entirely possible that someone with nefarious intent would use their own child as cover for their actions. There as no reason for him to be there so why was he?

Well yes this thread has gone off on a tangent from the original post and quite a few people have quoted me now so just going to reply to everyone then go...

It's my understanding that trans people go through lots re. mental health. Therefore if a trans woman who had obviously been through medical treatments/lifestyle changes was to share a changing room with me, I would assume that person had dealt with a lot of internal pain and trauma to get to that point and bloody leave them alone. I definitely would not suspect them of being a pervert as a default. Same goes for if I knew I was getting changed next to a lesbian.

I will say I do understand the point that it could be easy to just put on a dress and pretend to be trans. Just found this thread completely devoid of any empathy.