AIBU to not want a man and his son using girls changing rooms

[shatteredmama]

Took dd 7 for her swimming lesson, there are separate open plan girls and boys changing rooms (it’s in a school). Was surprised to see a man come in with his young son for him use the showers.

I felt uncomfortable with this, especially as the boy goes to the same school as dd. Also pissed off at the air of entitlement from the man. Couldn’t think of any valid reason for both males to use the girls room.

No other women in there batted an eyelid though. I’ve emailed the swim school to complain but not heard anything back.

Its left me second guessing myself and wondering if I’m making a big deal out of this, and given it was children only getting changed, not women, or the man thankfully!, does that make it ok??

@Cw112 Even with "trans men" there is still a way to tell they're women. They're also the same size/build as women so not a threat like biological men are. It's not the gotcha you think it is.

I meant exactly what I said thanks. My point is that plenty of transmen will not feel comfortable using a women's bathroom/ changing facility because they do not identify as women. And it also means they need to 'out' themselves as trans to use them as well. So if in this example the father who came into the changing room was a transman everyone is jumping to the conclusion that he's either mistaken or a creep... how do you expect transmen to manage that? I wouldn't feel comfortable with a big bloke with a beard coming in but I also wouldn't expect them to have to announce their gender identity to make everyone else breathe a sigh of relief either.

That really depends on the individual and comes down to how well someone 'passes' as male or female. Not all of the trans people I know look on the surface like they are trans. So my point is that its going to raise awkward moments as well.

There’s nothing fundamentally wrong or predatory or sexual or shameful or whatever else about humans of any age being naked or undressing in front of each other in a setting where this is expected like a changing room. It becomes a problem when someone is behaving in an inappropriate way. Simply existing is not inappropriate. Not every woman thinks unisex changing is inherently bad or traumatising or that the very presence of men means they must all be rapists or paedos. Swimming pools have had open plan unisex changing areas since they were built, I grew up going to a leisure centre like that where the showers are actually in full view of the pool. I don’t remember anyone having an issue with it either when I went swimming as a child with school, or as an adult. There were male and female changing but they were just one big open room with no cubicles so privacy-wise the open plan bit with cubicles was actually better.

The man in question here could’ve been a creep doing it on purpose but Occam’s razor suggests it was an innocent mistake.

I thank you all for your input, good to get other thoughts and perspectives on this. A few asked why I didn’t say anything at the time. That’s a very good point and I wish I had. The thing is I’m quite an anxious person, also have trouble thinking quickly of what to say when taken by surprise.

There was something about that man which I did not like at all. I spoke with him before the changing room incident and my instinct was telling me he was odd and unpleasant. I felt intimidated. Sad but true. I will be pursuing this with the swim school though.

In an ideal world there would be a mix of changing rooms so that parents can parent in privacy and people can use their choice of individual space or individual sexed space. I can totally see why he didn't want to bring two daughters into the male changing rooms and didn't want to leave them unattended or change them poolside either. Ideally we need spaces that cater to everyone's needs are divided out to allow for that.

Please stop with this straw man. I am a victim of rape and I don’t share this view.

You’re happy for men to use female spaces where women and girls are getting changed, just because they want to? Why?

People on mumsnet really believe that trans people are just pretending so they can perv on women in changing rooms. Elaborate plan but ok.

I am a victim of rape and I DO share that view. You don't speak for victims of rape, and you do not have the right to give our consent away. Being a victim of trauma is NOT a 'straw man', and no victim of rape would even think like that to say it was.

@breadandroses93 Apart from the fact that there have been many cases of them doing just that, it's not just about trans people, it's about male bodied people however they identify, TAKING ADVANTAGE of it. How can we know who truly identifies as trans women, and who doesn't? That's what you overlook.

Plenty seem to like Tweeting pictures from inside women's toilets. I've never felt inclined to post pictures from a toilet. Each to their own...

This is so interesting because a while ago there was a thread on here where this Dad didn’t want a random man (another sad) from school to pick up DD and take her to swimming lessons, where he would be in changing rooms with the children as it was unisex.

And everyone said it was fine, a handful of people didn’t think it to be fine and they were told how mental they was for not wanting a dad to pick up their daughter and thinking the Mum should take her, saying how there’s 0 risk, that thread was a big eye opener on how relaxed people are with their children.

Have MN people finally seen how inappropriate this is?

No, we just want single sex spaces. Why should the comfort and dignity of women be removed just because a certain class of males want to have access to our spaces?

Why are those males treated as more significant?

I've just had enough of this bullshit. Women are not secondary to any male who wants to be in our spaces for any reason, be it this man in the swim change room or a trans woman whose dignity is NOT more important than mine or any other woman's.

Victim here and I also agree. Just because you think it’s fine to see swinging dick in private WOMEN only spaces doesn’t mean we all do. Other women’s right to privacy trumps your nonchalant attitude

@breadandroses93 btw there is nothing 'elaborate' about it. ALL they have to do is say "I identify as", and they're in. No hormones, no gender reassignment operations, nothing. The PM could say I identify as a woman, dressed as he is, and enter womens spaces. There is nothing 'elaborate' about self ID.

Why is it a confrontation to say ‘this is the girls changing room, I think you took a wrong turn’’

Its left me second guessing myself and wondering if I’m making a big deal out of this, and given it was children only getting changed, not women, or the man thankfully!, does that make it ok??

An unrelated adult male being around little girls getting changed? No this is not OK and I wish more women were outraged by this entitled behaviour. Not challenging this behaviour normalises it for little girls which puts them at greater risk of grooming and abuse because they don't know what normal and acceptable boundaries are.

It does not matter if the man in this instance is harmless, predators don't announce themselves as such, they look just like the dad of the little boy next door so little girls need to know it's not OK for an unrelated adult male to be present when they are undressed.

I grew up in another Southeast Asian country and have spent lots of time in Thailand. Not encountered this, ever. You are talking bollocks.

Afraid the man would hit her? Plenty of reasons why women don't feel able to tell a man he is in the wrong space.

Did you actually just imply I’m not actually a rape victim? How dare you. I don’t share your view but that doesn’t invalidate the fact I’ve experienced sexual trauma. You have no right to demand I agree with you or question my experiences.

An innocent mistake, I imagine. I'd have pointed them in the right direction

Well, no, he was in the wrong and in the wrong place!

So better to tell him there and then rather than e mailing later when all the getting changed was done.

What is fundamentally wrong with people seeing each other naked? Can someone answer that? Bodies are not inherently sexual. The more they’re normalised and not seen as something to be embarrassed of, ashamed about or clandestine the better imo.

@TedMullins a man coming into a female changing room is the definition of inappropriate whether he’s a predator or not so please go away with your silly stories about there’s nothing wrong with everyone of both sexes getting naked together and frolicking happily because it’s a load of gaslighting bollocks.