Be honest: Do you judge married women without kids?

[oxymomon]

When you meet a woman who has been married for years, and doesn't have children, do you (A) make assumptions about why they don't have children; (B) ask them why they don't have children (feel it's your place to seek answers); (C) judge them for not having children; (D) all of the above; or (E) none of the above? Be honest. What do you really think...

I had just had my second consecutive miscarriage and was asked by a girlfriend of a family member if I was planning a second, but she didn’t stop there, she then went on to say ‘I say this gently, but at 35 you need to be getting a move on’ I cried inside and wanted the ground to swallow me up. I wish I’d said something ag the time but was too shell shocked, the odd this is this lady is child free by choice and is always moaning and complaining about how everyone else asks her and how it’s annoying - yet she does it to other people constantly! 🙈

I hope everyone expressing astonishment that this happens is reading the thread on Jennifer Aniston. 16 pages of judging her for not having kids, so far.

Seriously?
Didn't she say she tried IVF?
So people are judging her for not being able to conceive?

Going to go have a look, see if that's what they are saying.

They’re saying she didn’t care enough to start early enough, or that she didn’t commit to IVF because posters saw a picture of her drinking and shooting films, or that she actually is lying about ever having IVF.

The conversation has also gone wider. Apparently too many women are claiming to have missed out through bad luck when they just didn’t get organised enough to have kids in their 20s, and that those who weren’t lucky enough to do so probably have personality problems. It’s charming.

(Trigger warning, the thread includes a lot of discussion of whether Brad Pitt is an abuser or it’s all Angie’d fault, because of course it does.)

I think it's interesting that so many readers made assumptions about me as the OP. Did you assume I was a mother? Perhaps after a few of my comments, it dawned on people that I'm not. I'm a childless married person. My username is like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a fork. And no, I'm not insane. I'm hurt. I'm hurt after experiencing all of the options myself. But instead of posting that, I posted it as a survey. And assumptions about me as an anonymous poster were made. But this trail, and the coincidence with the Jen Aniston article coming out a a couple of days later, have shown that I am not alone in the hurtful comments, intrusive prying, and judgement I've received. To those who don't realise that you are doing these to others, perhaps reading some of the comments on this thread will help you take some learnings on board?

Is the post nasty, or is the behaviour nasty? Because this thread, along with the other one about Jennifer Aniston confirms that this does happen. Oh, and I guess you're another person who made assumptions about who I am? My handle, and the fact that I'm on "Mums"net is like a traffic jam when you're already late...

Ah, another person who made assumptions about who I am? My Mumsnet name is like a no-smoking sign on your cigarette break. But it's a very interesting question you pose. I have received so many negative comments, and my husband very few. He is also a married person without children. But, in my extensive experience, the judgement falls on me, not him...

I think that my starting this thread, and positioning it as a survey rather than instantly sharing my own experiences as a childless married woman highlighted that perhaps some education is needed?
I like to think that most people don't realise their comments are hurtful. But I hope that some people have read this trail, and they might have learned something.
Sadly, I couldn't have expected that Jennifer Aniston article to be published just after I posted my OP. The response to that shows that the challenge is perhaps worse than I thought. A lot of work is needed to change some deeply engrained societal norms.
My final thoughts:

1. It is not great to ask if someone has kids, but I fully recognise that most people think they are just making small talk. So I'd usually put this down to naivety.
2. It is awful to go prying. You never know what somebody has been through. There are countless reasons why someone might be childless. Countless!
3. So don't make assumptions either, as they are probably wrong. Please refer to point 2 above, about there being countless reasons!
4. People are usually self-obsessed (the poster who made that point was right). But that begs the question: if people don't have time to think about other people's lives, then why have so many people on this trail admitted to (a) wondering, (b) making assumptions, and (c) asking? Could it be because they are judging, but perhaps not admitting that to even themselves? Because we really only wonder about things we have an opinion on.
5. It is so hurtful to say things like "That's such a shame, because your DH would make such a great Dad" (I've had that), or "Who will look after you when you grow old" (I've had that ... and I do wonder .... is that not a very selfish reason to bring kids into this world?!).
6. It is not okay to print out articles on IVF and hand them, unasked for, to someone (yes, that happened).
7. And, for goodness sake people ... stop comparing children to dogs! If I had a penny for every time somebody asked me: "Would you think of getting a dog?".

I sometimes wish there was more nuance in the conversation.

I don’t have kids and almost certainly won’t be having them and it feels like I either have to tell people I really don’t want them, or I have to have some painful backstory about multiple rounds of IVF and an aching longing for kids that will never be fulfilled.

I feel like there isn’t room in the conversation for people like me where the answer is something like ‘tried for a bit, didn’t happen, decided not to do IVF as I knew it wouldn’t be good for me mentally, made my peace with it, feeling pretty OK about it, sometimes I have the odd day where I wonder about it but mostly I’m quite happy, think I’m going to have quite a nice life actually’. I’ve said something along those lines before and for people their brains just don’t seem to be able to compute it. Either you must hate kids or you must be really devastated about it and you’re hiding it.

Very well put. 👏

Yep, I'm judged. For example on a flight I was having that general chat with the passenger next to me and said I was married, then the conversation went like this:
Them: Do you have children?
Me: No
Them: Why?
Me: I can't. I had two miscarriages and the surgeon accidentally destroyed my womb lining on the second one and I can't carry a baby. (Secondary judgement - people assume it was my fertility that caused the miscarriage - don't assume its the woman, but do assume we were sad and that I was and am mightily unhappy about the outcome).
Them: Have you considered adopting?
Me: Its something we've considered, but it would have been unfair to adopt. Working and caring for an elderly Mother meant that I simply couldn't have given a child the time needed. My Mother has recently died so maybe once we've re-grouped we'll look at adoption again.
Them: satisfied with answer and now comfortable chatting with me...
Me: ...would have been uncomfortable 5 years ago when it happened, but now resigned to having these types of conversations played out in public with many people listening in...

The bottom line is its not their fault and it won't change anything by me lashing out and scarring them with the details just because they didn't appreciate the full implications of what they were asking...its simply one of those sad moments in life and its best to look forward. I doubt we can afford a surrogate so maybe what I should be asking is should I be adopting in my mid 40s and a husband in his mid 50s?! And I am blessed to have a brill
iant husband.

I’ve recently started working with a colleague who’s married and doesn’t have children. I have no idea whether this is by choice or not - I wouldn’t dream of asking, it’s none of my business. And because I don’t know whether or not it’s by choice, I do make a conscious effort not to talk about my children very much at work. So for example if she asks me if I’ve had a nice weekend, I’d keep the conversation to what I’ve watched on tv or something, rather than bore her with the details of a trip to soft play.

I’m more confused that you keep putting Alanis Morrisette quotes in your posts…. 🤔

As childless woman in 40s I don't mind if you chat about your children. I'd think it weird if you didn't!

I thought it was

"it's like 10,000 spoons when I needed a knife..."

I have always wondered why anyone would get upset that a woman hasn't had children. I could see close family missing the grandchildren/cousins/nieces and nephews that may have been born, but actually being upset by it is a wonder to me.

I think some people see it as a judgment on themselves, for some reason. I wouldn’t say I’ve had people be ‘upset’ with me exactly but I have had people get a little defensive and start telling me (unprompted) about how kids were more important to them
than a career, or how their kids are the centre of their world ‘but I suppose it’s not for everyone’ (with accompanying raised eyebrow). And I guess some people over-project and imagine not having had their own kids, and find that thought really upsetting?

I would wonder but not ask.

You do what? Why do you do that? How patronising!

None of the above. I do wonder, but never in a million years would I ask.

I even have a couple of very close relatives who have never mentioned whether they'd hoped to have children or had chosen not to. And another couple of close relatives have told me in confidence the reason why they don't have children - it drives me mad to hear my DH making constant wrong assumptions about them which I can't correct; I just have to remind him that he doesn't actually know the situation.

Why would anybody care?

@PenNPeg Them: satisfied with answer

Yes I have experienced this. Some women only stop hounding me with questions when I make THEM feel better about MY choice. They have to have a valid reason they accept.

No I don’t. We’ve all got our own story. I work with a few married women past childbearing age with no kids, it’s none of my business. If they bring it up I listen but it’s not a conversation I would start

Although I might be curious because I like to hear people’s stories, but I am worldly enough to understand how painful this particular subject might be for them if it’s not a choice they have made. I also wouldn’t want to accidentally insinuate that they have failed somehow as that’s how it can come across.

Hear hear!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Some people take you saying you don’t want children personally, like it’s a criticism of their life choices.

I do often think if someone reacts this way, they can’t be fully content in their choice as otherwise it wouldn’t bother them 🤷🏼‍♀️